Protecting Children in a Digital Age: The Fight Against Exploitation A Conversation with Denise Abdoo, PhD, CPNP, MSN, Antonia Chiesa, MD and Warren Binford, JD, EdM

The Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC) and its Optional Protocol on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography (OPSC) are the foundational international legal instruments designed to protect children. However, as these treaties were adopted before the widespread digital era, their provisions require a modern interpretation to effectively combat the increasing links between sexual offenses against children and the online environment. Our podcast will delve into our recent report to the CRC, which aims to foster a deeper understanding of these challenges, enable more effective implementation of the OPSC by States, and ensure the Protocol remains a robust instrument for child protection, regardless of how offenses are facilitated. 

Transcript

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You're listening to Radio Kempe.

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We value the sense of community
that connects

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people
and helps them find ways to move forward.

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Join us on our journey to prevent child
abuse

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and neglect.

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Welcome and welcome back.

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This is Radio Kempe.

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I'm Kendall Marlowe

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with the Kempe Center for the Prevention
and Treatment of Child Abuse and Neglect.

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Thanks for joining us.

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This is a special episode of Radio Kempe. 

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A report has just been submitted
to an international entity

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on a serious
and emerging issue for children and youth.

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The Kempe Center was founded 53 years ago

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to address the prevention
and treatment of child abuse and neglect.

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But times change, technology changes

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and so to do the harms faced by children.

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How do we respond in this growing threat
to child

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safety best be addressed
through local initiative,

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or can something be done at a national
or even international level?

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We're lucky today to be joined
by three professionals

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fully engaged in this battle.

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Warren Binford, good to see you.

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Thanks for being here.

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Thanks for having me, Kendall.

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Antonio Chiesa.

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Good to see you. Hi. Thank you.

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And Denise Abdoo is also joined us.

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Hi, Denise.

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Thank you for having us.

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Denise, can we first ask you.

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Who are you?

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What do you do for a living?

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And how did you experience these issues?

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We're about to discuss.

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Take us behind the scenes.

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So I work clinically as a pediatric nurse
practitioner

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with the child abuse team, at Children's
Hospital Colorado.

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And with the Kempe Center.

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And I became involved in this work

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because of the patients
that I see in my clinical practice.

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So seeing young adolescents,

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as early as ten, 11, 12,

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all the way up to 18, 19, 20,

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who are experiencing,

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Problems like child sexual assault,

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adolescent sexual assault and meeting

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their offenders online.

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And so these young people

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are showing up
where it's at a clinic or a hospital.

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How does this happen?

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They show up either
in an emergency department setting or in

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an outpatient clinical setting,
and we see them as a team,

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to evaluate any medical concerns
that they might have.

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But listening to their stories,

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to the histories that they tell us about
how they're meeting people.

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It's moved from when I started my career
to meeting people,

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on the in
a, in a very organic setting in person

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to now, almost all of the people
that I see are meeting people online,

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on apps, on their mobile phones
or other devices,

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and that's how they're meeting them
and having

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very little conceptual awareness
that the person on the other end

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of that conversation on an app
is not likely who they said they were.

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And they don't realize that

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until they meet them in person
in something that happens.

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And what is that

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something that
what are we talking about here?

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We're talking about either
physical assault, sexual assault,

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sextortion, or being sex
trafficked or human trafficked.

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And you see that in your practice.

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How often is this once in a blue moon
kind of thing?

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No, unfortunately, this is, pretty common
in terms of the patients

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that we see
we're seeing in a pediatric focused.

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So really 0 to 18 years of age,
we're seeing,

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in terms of acute or cases of patients
that will need,

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forensic evidence collection,
commonly known as rape kits.

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We're seeing around 120 to 130 patients
a year. Wow.

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And even more than that in a non acute
setting in terms of people

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who don't need
that forensic evidence collected.

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Antonia,

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who are

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you and what's been your relationship
to all this?

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I am Denise’s colleague
I'm a child abuse pediatrician.

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We're on the same team.

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So we do very similar clinical work.

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And I would say
when I first started this work,

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over 20 years ago, as Denise mentioned,
it was pretty uncommon

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to see a, children
who had been exploited, via technology.

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And over the last 5 to 10 years,

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that experience is really exploded.

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I would say most of the cases that we see
are adolescents, as Denise mentioned,

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because they're commonly interfacing
with social media.

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Which I think
everyone is aware of nowadays.

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But we have had cases of infants

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who have been sexually abused in their,

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videos or photographs posted online.

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We became aware of them
because a large tech, internet company

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identified those photographs
through some of their security measures

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and let us know so that we could see the
child and check that infant out medically.

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Those cases are rare, but they,

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they exist.

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And we know that across the internet,
those cases are increasingly more common

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for the adolescents.

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We see kids who are vulnerable,
who are perhaps

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having challenges in their personal lives
or at home, who then meet folks online

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who take advantage of that vulnerability
and ultimately end up exploiting them.

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And as Denise mentioned, they can be
in a variety of different ways.

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It sounds like technology

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has changed this landscape.

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And the child welfare professional,
and I'm very aware

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of historically predators

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gathering around residential treatment
centers and group homes,

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predators gathering around places like bus

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stations and truck stops and whatnot.

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I got your report

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in my hands
that we'll talk about in a second.

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But one of the people
that you all interviewed said predators

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online have access to a whole population
that you never had access to before.

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Which means that we have a significant
increase in tween age

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children and adolescent children who are
being exploited just because of the access

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that people have
to them in the digital world.

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So how does that happen?

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I mean, I think a parent could imagine

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their kid,
you know, meeting a stranger online.

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But how does that
how do we go from a innocent contact

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to start on some kind of platform
to this kind of harm?

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You're talking about rape
and other forms of violence.

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How does that happen?

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Well, I don't think it'll surprise
anyone that kids are increasingly,

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given access to the internet
at younger and younger ages.

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And, people online can,

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create profiles that do not
accurately depict who they are.

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So the,
the technology has some pretty special,

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you know, characteristics
that make this sort of perpetration easier

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than, you know, walking up to someone
and seeing someone in person.

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But I had a case of a 14 year old

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who had been bullied at school
and was struggling.

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She, lived with her mom, who was single.

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Mom was working a lot
and not in the home and able to supervise,

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media as well as maybe
she would have even liked.

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And they had some conflict.

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They weren't getting along really well.

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And she was approached on a very common,

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social media site by someone who said
that they were a teenager

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and started to,
just develop a friendship with her.

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And then over time
admitted that that they were older

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and admitted that they were an adult.

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But by then they

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had developed a friendship that a trust.

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And, and this person,

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was seen as a sort of a confidante
to this young,

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vulnerable adolescent who was struggling
in other domains in her life

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and the turn of events that really

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that really brought everything to a
to a had.

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Was it she,
dropped her phone and broke it and,

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he promised to buy her a new phone
if they could finally meet in person.

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And when they eventually met,

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she was sexually assaulted by this person.

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And, fortunately,

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disclosed what had happened
and came to us for care, but it was,

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it was a really tough case,
but I would say it was,

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illustrative of common stories

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that we hear over time.

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And I, I don't think it has to even be

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as insidious as Antonia

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just described,
because within about two weeks of meeting

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a new friend online, kids are being asked.

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Youth are being asked

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to send photos, to send images,
to send things to other people.

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And then those images are no longer
their possession.

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And those images are being sent out
into the internet, into the into

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the World Wide Web of this network
for people to be able to see.

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And that causes additional

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duress and exploitation in other ways.

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So you have this,

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this spectrum that ranges from,

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asking for photos all the way to

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we get to the end point
that, Doctor Kaso was just talking about

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in terms of meeting in person
for the first time, after you've developed

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what you think
is a relationship with somebody

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who's your friend,
who's your confidant, who cares about you,

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and now you're in a space
where you've been assaulted,

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physically, sexually harmed by them,

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traumatized by that individual,

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and figuring out how to recover from that,
how to have supports,

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how to get your bodily autonomy back
and learn how to trust people again.

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And in a world where

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you have no idea who you're talking to
on the other end of that,

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that application, the internet,
wherever you're meeting people.

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Warren, how did

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this lead to the report
that I have in my end?

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And help us understand

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what could be the role of something like
the United Nations in something like this?

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We think of the UN
as this big August organization

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dealing with international crises
and whatnot.

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What is this report war,
and how does this relate

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to the United Nations,
and how does this help?

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Well, basically,
the challenges that we're seeing here in

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the United States are challenges
that are being seen worldwide.

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Starting with the abuse
and exploitation of children.

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And so the global community came together
in the late 20th century,

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and they developed a series of treaties
that tried to commit all of the countries

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in the world to combating what at the time
was called child prostitution.

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Child pornography,
and the sale of children.

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And the United States is a party
to a treaty that obligates countries

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to combat these crimes
and to provide care to children,

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and to pursue justice on their behalf
and on behalf of the public.

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And so the chair of the U.N.

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committee, it's
called the UN Committee on the rights.

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A child was visiting c

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u and shoots in the chem center last fall,
and she talked to

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some of our frontline providers
and was amazed by the work that they do.

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And she invited us to submit a report
to the UN

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explaining what it is that we're seeing
on the front lines, the challenges

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our frontline providers face in
trying to provide care for these children,

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as well as to assess
whether or not the U.S.

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is complying with its treaty obligations
under this treaty.

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And what is that treaty called?

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Is this the convention
on the rights of the child?

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I think some of our listeners
have heard about that.

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No, this is not that treaty,
but this is a related treaty.

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The U.S.

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is not a party to the UN convention
on the rights a child.

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This treaty is called the,

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the Optional Protocol to the convention
on the rights of a child

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on the Sale of Children,
Child prostitution and Child Pornography.

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Those of us who are international lawyers

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refer to it
as simply the Second Optional Protocol.

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And so it's a related treaty,
but it's a fully independent treaty

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in that a country can obligate itself

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under the Second Optional Protocol

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without having been a party
to the original convention on the rights.

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A child got it.

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And then what is the role, the purpose
of a report being submitted like this?

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What does that do? Where does that go?
What happens?

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So basically, the world's, treaties

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that focus on children,
they are reporting treaties.

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In other words,

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they're difficult to enforce
because their purpose is not enforcement.

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In most cases, there is a treaty
that does try and allow an opportunity

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for an individual child
or group of children to settle a complaint

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that most of the child,
children's treaties, including this one,

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try and help the world
to create a better society,

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nation by nation, by obligating
every party, every state party to report

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how it's doing, how is it fulfilling
its duties under the treaty.

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And so about every five years or so, under
sometimes seven years, the,

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the countries that are parties
to this particular treaty,

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they file a very substantial report
saying, here are all of the things

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that we're doing to combat child
prostitution, to combat

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child pornography, and to combat
the sale of children in the United States.

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And this treaty or.

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Sorry, excuse me, this report was filed
as part of that reporting

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process with the UN.

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So the three of you are

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coauthors on this,
along with Ashley Meyer,

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Olivia Polizzi and Matthew Yeager.

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How was the idea
for this report generated?

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And then what did you go out
and do to create this?

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So basically

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what we did was we invited, the three
law students that you just mentioned

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from Sue Law school to, to join us

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in interviewing and surveying

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frontline
professionals across the United States

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and asking them specific questions
about what

00:15:32:10 - 00:15:36:20
they're seeing on the front lines
within the framework of the treaty,

00:15:36:20 - 00:15:39:21
to determine
if there were any parts of the treaty

00:15:39:21 - 00:15:42:21
that the United States
was not in compliance with.

00:15:43:01 - 00:15:47:17
And so the report is basically a summary
of those interviews

00:15:47:17 - 00:15:50:24
and surveys of frontline professionals
from around the United States.

00:15:52:03 - 00:15:52:22
And I notice

00:15:52:22 - 00:15:58:06
it is filled with direct quotes
from those frontline professionals

00:15:59:00 - 00:16:02:01
of what they are seeing
and what they're experiencing.

00:16:02:24 - 00:16:07:11
So Janice and Antonia, what what
did you do to engage with these folks?

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:08:23
Did you take them all out to coffee?

00:16:08:23 - 00:16:11:07
How did this happen?

00:16:11:07 - 00:16:15:05
These are people that we work with
routinely, either in a medical setting.

00:16:15:05 - 00:16:19:09
So people who work in emergency department
settings, in clinical settings

00:16:19:19 - 00:16:23:04
and or people who work in law enforcement,
social services

00:16:23:04 - 00:16:26:24
or the child welfare system
in juvenile assessment centers,

00:16:26:24 - 00:16:30:06
who all are seeing the same concerns

00:16:30:06 - 00:16:33:06
about exploitation.

00:16:33:08 - 00:16:36:09
Within are within the systems
in which we work.

00:16:36:09 - 00:16:40:12
And our systems intersect
in very interesting ways.

00:16:41:11 - 00:16:44:17
And because this is really
a multi-disciplinary problem,

00:16:44:17 - 00:16:48:02
meaning it takes sort of the heads
of a lot of different types

00:16:48:02 - 00:16:51:19
of professionals
to tackle these complex cases.

00:16:52:19 - 00:16:56:11
We decided to
interview not just medical professionals,

00:16:56:11 - 00:17:01:23
but folks like social workers or law
enforcement officers, those community

00:17:01:23 - 00:17:06:03
type providers who might be employed
by a nonprofit, for example,

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:10:02
who are specifically,
involved in human trafficking.

00:17:10:12 - 00:17:13:05
And spoiler alert,

00:17:13:05 - 00:17:16:08
they found some challenges
with that treaty

00:17:16:08 - 00:17:19:24
that we were not meeting here in the U.S..

00:17:20:12 - 00:17:23:19
So these are folks with direct contact
with the kind of cases

00:17:23:19 - 00:17:24:12
you're talking about.

00:17:24:12 - 00:17:27:14
These are front line
people. Exactly. Yeah.

00:17:27:14 - 00:17:28:22
Which is really different.

00:17:28:22 - 00:17:33:06
So as Warren mentioned,
when the committee meets

00:17:33:06 - 00:17:36:06
to hear
about how these countries are doing,

00:17:36:08 - 00:17:41:13
they rarely get to meet the types of folks
who are frontline workers.

00:17:41:13 - 00:17:45:13
They're usually talking
to governmental people or policy wonks.

00:17:45:13 - 00:17:45:22
Right.

00:17:45:22 - 00:17:49:20
And so they're not hearing the stories
of the children

00:17:49:20 - 00:17:52:06
from the people
who have boots on the ground.

00:17:53:09 - 00:17:53:17
And I

00:17:53:17 - 00:17:56:17
just want to read one of those quotes
because

00:17:56:22 - 00:18:00:07
because you are talking to front line
folks who really do this every day.

00:18:01:04 - 00:18:03:19
Some of these quotes
really jump off the page.

00:18:03:19 - 00:18:07:17
One of your folks says
the internet is very evil.

00:18:07:17 - 00:18:09:10
As these things go,

00:18:09:10 - 00:18:12:24
it's very easy to hide who you are
when you're communicating with minors.

00:18:13:11 - 00:18:16:14
It's very easy to appear
as a sympathetic third party

00:18:16:14 - 00:18:19:14
when you're really a predator
trying to groom somebody.

00:18:19:15 - 00:18:22:15
And the internet
has changed that entirely.

00:18:24:07 - 00:18:25:11
So these are folks.

00:18:25:11 - 00:18:28:07
These are folks on the ground.
So what did you learn?

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:28:23
All of you.

00:18:28:23 - 00:18:31:23
What did you learn in listening?

00:18:33:12 - 00:18:38:01
So what are some of the conclusions
we reached based upon what we heard

00:18:38:01 - 00:18:42:06
from the frontline professionals
is that the United States needs to be

00:18:42:06 - 00:18:47:10
it needs to do a better job to prohibit
these types of crimes that although,

00:18:48:09 - 00:18:50:02
there have been

00:18:50:02 - 00:18:53:19
laws that have been passed in
different states and at the federal level

00:18:53:19 - 00:18:58:04
around the country,
the fact is that these laws do not address

00:18:58:10 - 00:19:02:01
the way in
which children are being abused today.

00:19:02:01 - 00:19:05:19
So we don't have laws
that apply to the internet

00:19:05:19 - 00:19:10:12
and the technologies facilitation
of the exploitation and abuse of children.

00:19:10:12 - 00:19:13:05
So the United States
needs to do a better job in that.

00:19:13:05 - 00:19:14:09
In addition to that,

00:19:14:09 - 00:19:18:03
we're failing to really protect victims
rights during the legal proceedings.

00:19:18:08 - 00:19:23:01
We also, are not putting enough
funding into the prevention

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:27:08
of these crimes,
both at Texas militated and otherwise.

00:19:27:12 - 00:19:30:14
We also are seeing
substantial deficiencies

00:19:30:14 - 00:19:33:15
in the U.S
with regard to education and awareness.

00:19:33:15 - 00:19:36:22
We need to do a better job
of educating parents,

00:19:37:09 - 00:19:41:21
children, youth, frontline
professionals, law enforcement, etc.

00:19:42:00 - 00:19:45:00
about how these crimes
are being facilitated today.

00:19:45:03 - 00:19:47:14
And the last area where we found
deficiencies

00:19:47:14 - 00:19:51:15
was with regard to victim assistance
and support services, that we need to do

00:19:51:15 - 00:19:55:03
a much better job at providing
trauma informed care to these kids.

00:19:55:14 - 00:19:59:16
So you started with prohibition
and prosecution?

00:20:00:09 - 00:20:02:19
I think it would seem to a layperson

00:20:02:19 - 00:20:05:24
that, you know, raping a child is illegal.

00:20:07:11 - 00:20:08:21
Some of the things that you, you know,

00:20:08:21 - 00:20:11:21
you see the results of in the hospital,

00:20:11:24 - 00:20:14:13
those are already crimes.

00:20:14:13 - 00:20:18:07
Why aren't those properly prosecuted?

00:20:18:07 - 00:20:20:22
Antonia, you're a pediatrician.

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:23:13
Can't you call law enforcement and say,
I've got evidence

00:20:23:13 - 00:20:24:21
that the following thing has happened?

00:20:24:21 - 00:20:26:14
And don't they act on it?

00:20:26:14 - 00:20:29:02
We absolutely do.
And we do it immediately.

00:20:29:02 - 00:20:33:24
But the, criminal process is often
quite drawn out.

00:20:33:24 - 00:20:37:03
We heard that repeated
especially by our law enforcement

00:20:37:03 - 00:20:41:22
and district attorney colleagues, who said
that it's just the nature of the system.

00:20:41:22 - 00:20:45:24
And so,
many people say that the process itself,

00:20:45:24 - 00:20:51:06
because it's so drawn out, is actually,
inflicting additional trauma onto these,

00:20:52:11 - 00:20:55:11
onto these survivor ers who may be,

00:20:55:13 - 00:20:58:15
interviewed multiple times
about their experiences

00:20:58:23 - 00:21:03:23
or who really have to wait a long time
before they have closure about,

00:21:04:05 - 00:21:04:23
what happened to them.

00:21:04:23 - 00:21:09:22
And sometimes, the
the outcome is not what one would hope.

00:21:09:22 - 00:21:12:22
We had certain
law enforcement officers talk about

00:21:13:02 - 00:21:17:06
how weak some of the laws
are, especially around sentencing.

00:21:18:06 - 00:21:19:11
And so it can just be

00:21:19:11 - 00:21:23:03
a challenge in terms of
not not just the outcome of

00:21:23:06 - 00:21:26:15
of getting the right, verdict,

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:29:22
but actually the
the length of time of the process itself.

00:21:30:21 - 00:21:34:00
Warren, you're a legal scholar,
and I know that you've worked

00:21:34:00 - 00:21:37:00
on legislation around the country.

00:21:38:05 - 00:21:41:13
Can new laws actually fix that,
or is aren't there

00:21:41:13 - 00:21:45:06
technological challenges,
resource challenges?

00:21:45:21 - 00:21:50:10
Can we change law to address the gap
that Antonio is talking about?

00:21:50:10 - 00:21:51:14
There?

00:21:51:14 - 00:21:52:06
Yeah, certainly.

00:21:52:06 - 00:21:56:19
I mean, what we heard from investigators,
law enforcement in this case is

00:21:56:19 - 00:22:01:01
they're basically playing whac-a-mole
that we are seeing an explosion

00:22:01:01 - 00:22:06:04
of these types of crimes online,
and they don't have the resources

00:22:06:04 - 00:22:11:22
to prosecute all of the cases
that are worthy, for prosecution.

00:22:11:22 - 00:22:14:06
And so they're trying to triage.

00:22:14:06 - 00:22:17:14
And so one thing that we need to do is
we need to allocate more

00:22:17:14 - 00:22:20:24
resources for the prosecution of this,
for these types of crimes.

00:22:20:24 - 00:22:25:01
In addition to that, new crimes
are being created in the 21st century,

00:22:25:01 - 00:22:29:13
so that, for example, we are seeing live
streaming child sex abuse,

00:22:29:13 - 00:22:32:18
where someone in one location will,

00:22:33:05 - 00:22:36:10
either pay or persuade a child to,

00:22:38:06 - 00:22:38:13
you know,

00:22:38:13 - 00:22:41:17
be have
their abuse live streamed remotely.

00:22:41:17 - 00:22:45:09
Sometimes the victim
is in the United States, oftentimes

00:22:45:09 - 00:22:49:22
they are overseas
and we don't have the international

00:22:49:22 - 00:22:55:09
jurisdiction set up to adequately go
after these live streaming cases.

00:22:55:09 - 00:22:58:18
We also, in other research,
have looked at grooming and luring that.

00:22:58:18 - 00:23:03:08
As Doctor Abdu pointed out in Doctor Case,
I pointed out a lot of these

00:23:03:12 - 00:23:07:23
relationships start on the internet
with the child being lured.

00:23:08:01 - 00:23:11:16
If the child already knows the,
you know, the abuser.

00:23:12:15 - 00:23:16:11
The digital spaces are often
used to groom the child

00:23:16:18 - 00:23:19:14
and yet we don't have enough clear

00:23:19:14 - 00:23:23:21
laws on luring and grooming to be able
to prevent

00:23:23:21 - 00:23:27:16
these relationships from
being investigated by police, prosecuted

00:23:27:24 - 00:23:32:07
by district attorneys
before the child is raped.

00:23:32:07 - 00:23:33:16
It lines up in our Ed.

00:23:35:03 - 00:23:37:02
I think that's super important.

00:23:37:02 - 00:23:40:02
A lot of the folks
we interviewed talked about.

00:23:41:20 - 00:23:45:09
Helping kids
who are particularly vulnerable

00:23:45:11 - 00:23:48:23
remove themselves from their communities
where they might be exploited,

00:23:48:23 - 00:23:54:16
for example, or fixing the laws once
a child has already been raped.

00:23:55:02 - 00:23:58:02
But for me,

00:23:58:06 - 00:24:02:04
I really focus on
what can we do to prevent

00:24:03:00 - 00:24:05:05
the exploitation from happening,

00:24:05:05 - 00:24:08:05
especially on those tech platforms.

00:24:08:05 - 00:24:14:04
All of those other solutions
are very complicated and require

00:24:14:04 - 00:24:18:05
a lot of multiple different sectors

00:24:18:05 - 00:24:21:08
of society to come together and fix them.

00:24:22:04 - 00:24:27:02
Many of the solutions that are available,
in the tech industry

00:24:27:02 - 00:24:32:04
really live within the industry itself,
and many of them exist already.

00:24:32:14 - 00:24:37:04
We just don't have the laws
to make the companies do what's right.

00:24:37:19 - 00:24:42:03
And so we have a colleague
who uses, the seat belt analogy.

00:24:42:03 - 00:24:42:21
Right.

00:24:42:21 - 00:24:46:17
It's really hard to go tell 16 year
old boys don't drive too fast.

00:24:46:17 - 00:24:47:01
Right.

00:24:47:01 - 00:24:50:16
That's a that's a big request
for a lot of different reasons

00:24:51:00 - 00:24:54:13
that we can say
people put on your seatbelt

00:24:54:13 - 00:24:58:12
so that if something happens,
you're much safer.

00:24:58:12 - 00:25:02:10
And so again, this is a little bit
of a more simple solution that lives

00:25:02:10 - 00:25:08:08
within the tech industries
to help support public safety.

00:25:08:24 - 00:25:13:14
And so for me, starting upstream with them
is like a major focus.

00:25:14:12 - 00:25:17:01
Warren, how does that work?

00:25:17:01 - 00:25:19:22
Because you've had involvement
with legislation both,

00:25:21:04 - 00:25:23:08
state and federal on that.

00:25:23:08 - 00:25:26:02
Do tech companies
actually have this capacity?

00:25:26:02 - 00:25:28:05
How do we do prevention?

00:25:28:05 - 00:25:28:12
Yeah.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:33:17
So so basically what what happened here
is that when the internet

00:25:33:17 - 00:25:38:06
industry was still a baby in the 1990s,
it was given

00:25:38:13 - 00:25:42:12
a, you know, this protection
to allow it to grow.

00:25:42:12 - 00:25:45:03
And a law was passed,
a federal law was passed

00:25:45:03 - 00:25:47:10
that basically said
that they could not be held

00:25:47:10 - 00:25:50:10
liable for what
other people did on their platforms.

00:25:50:16 - 00:25:56:00
And the technology industry
has relied on that.

00:25:56:10 - 00:26:01:11
Section 30 of the Communications Decency
Act for the last 30 years

00:26:01:17 - 00:26:04:17
to not adequately,

00:26:04:19 - 00:26:08:00
you know, manage
what's going on on their platforms.

00:26:08:00 - 00:26:11:20
In fact, they moved in the other direction
that we now have algorithms

00:26:12:02 - 00:26:13:17
who will see that someone,

00:26:13:17 - 00:26:17:16
an adult male, is highly interested
in a 12 year old girls,

00:26:17:16 - 00:26:22:20
and that algorithm will actually feed them
more and more 12 year old girls.

00:26:23:04 - 00:26:28:12
And yet we can't hold the internet
platforms responsible

00:26:28:12 - 00:26:34:18
for that behavior, that misbehavior,
because of section 230 of the CDA.

00:26:34:18 - 00:26:38:13
And so what we really need to do
is to address the fact

00:26:38:13 - 00:26:43:02
that the tech companies are not
being passive neutral platforms anymore,

00:26:43:07 - 00:26:48:06
but they actually are putting predators
and children together, which is furthering

00:26:48:06 - 00:26:52:14
their victimization and putting them
at risk of sexual abuse and exploitation.

00:26:52:22 - 00:26:56:14
And so that's the background
to the problem

00:26:56:14 - 00:27:00:10
that we're we're trying to address
and that we're trying to urge both,

00:27:00:17 - 00:27:04:11
you know, federal lawmakers
as well as state lawmakers to do more

00:27:04:11 - 00:27:08:09
to regulate the platforms so that
they don't put children in harm's way.

00:27:09:01 - 00:27:13:03
And it sounds like some of the tools,
the data that one would need to do that,

00:27:13:03 - 00:27:17:04
the tools that one would need to do that
on the platforms already exists.

00:27:17:04 - 00:27:19:12
They're just be used for different
purposes.

00:27:19:12 - 00:27:20:19
Is that accurate?

00:27:20:19 - 00:27:22:06
Oh, that's absolutely accurate.

00:27:22:06 - 00:27:26:02
And, you know, for those of us who
have been in this space for for 20 years,

00:27:26:02 - 00:27:30:16
it was 2005 when I worked on
my first child sex abuse material.

00:27:31:00 - 00:27:35:23
Csam or child pornography case,
that we have seen the platforms

00:27:35:23 - 00:27:39:03
from being relatively neutral spaces
to now

00:27:39:03 - 00:27:42:22
being highly manipulated spaces
where it's hard

00:27:42:22 - 00:27:46:05
to assert control and we should be able
to turn off those algorithms,

00:27:46:12 - 00:27:51:19
especially for our children,
who should not have predators forced into,

00:27:51:20 - 00:27:56:14
you know, their feed and suggested,
as you know, potential contacts or friends

00:27:58:06 - 00:27:59:01
and, and more.

00:27:59:01 - 00:28:02:03
And I might add to that,
there's even things like you can

00:28:02:04 - 00:28:06:22
you need age verification
for joining certain types of things.

00:28:06:22 - 00:28:09:03
So like if you wanted to play online
poker,

00:28:09:03 - 00:28:12:03
you need to have an age verification,
which they do.

00:28:12:10 - 00:28:15:15
You don't have to verify your age
in certain ways.

00:28:15:15 - 00:28:18:15
You can just make up a birth date
to be able to get into

00:28:18:15 - 00:28:22:08
some of these platforms
and start participating in,

00:28:24:00 - 00:28:27:14
using apps or Snapchat or Twitter

00:28:27:14 - 00:28:30:16
or whatever,
whatever platform you're using.

00:28:31:11 - 00:28:35:14
And they're not verifying your age
when that would be a secondary,

00:28:35:14 - 00:28:39:24
easy solution
to try to keep very young tween age

00:28:39:24 - 00:28:42:24
children safe and protected.

00:28:43:05 - 00:28:44:19
That's absolutely right, Denise.

00:28:44:19 - 00:28:48:09
And and the other thing
is, is that it's not just the traditional

00:28:48:09 - 00:28:52:05
social media platforms where children
are being contacted by predators.

00:28:52:12 - 00:28:57:05
This is happening in gaming sites that
are targeted specifically for children.

00:28:57:09 - 00:29:00:00
And so we have predators
who are pretending,

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:03:24
you know, they're going into these
these children's gaming sites

00:29:03:24 - 00:29:09:24
and becoming friends
through these games with children

00:29:10:06 - 00:29:13:05
and then trying to groom them,

00:29:13:05 - 00:29:15:21
lure and groom them for exploitation.

00:29:15:21 - 00:29:21:11
And if we have age verification,
not just for pornography sites

00:29:21:24 - 00:29:25:02
like we have already for gambling sites
and liquor sites,

00:29:25:02 - 00:29:26:17
we have that for pornography sites.

00:29:26:17 - 00:29:31:02
And in the case of, you know,
children's apps or, you know, those,

00:29:31:02 - 00:29:35:17
those platforms that include children
and youth have age verification there

00:29:35:23 - 00:29:40:17
and limit the adults
who can access them to those that either,

00:29:40:17 - 00:29:45:23
you know, the that child or family
approves, then we're not going to have

00:29:46:02 - 00:29:50:10
random strangers coming into these sites
and trying to lure and groom the kiddos.

00:29:51:13 - 00:29:54:11
If you're a parent, you want to protect
your kids.

00:29:54:11 - 00:29:56:13
Certainly

00:29:56:13 - 00:30:00:09
are the things that we can do
in terms of education and awareness,

00:30:00:09 - 00:30:03:09
either for the parents
or for the kids themselves.

00:30:04:14 - 00:30:05:17
How do we do that?

00:30:05:17 - 00:30:08:12
I think for both,
and some of that is making sure

00:30:08:12 - 00:30:12:15
parents understand how quickly
the technology is changing

00:30:12:15 - 00:30:16:18
and how easily kids understand
those changes and know

00:30:17:04 - 00:30:21:00
new apps, new platforms, new games

00:30:21:09 - 00:30:25:09
that somebody of my age
might not have ever heard of, even if I

00:30:25:16 - 00:30:28:22
am surrounded by children
on a routine basis.

00:30:29:08 - 00:30:34:08
So making sure safety protections
are placed online, talking to your kids

00:30:34:08 - 00:30:39:20
about the dangers of who you might be
interacting with on the other end of,

00:30:40:07 - 00:30:44:09
any type of internet
or application gaming.

00:30:45:06 - 00:30:48:20
And then really thinking
about who owns photos once they're there.

00:30:48:20 - 00:30:52:17
This is no longer
the day of film where you had to develop.

00:30:52:17 - 00:30:54:06
You can just snap away.

00:30:54:06 - 00:30:58:20
And getting into there, is really easy
for people sharing as well.

00:30:59:05 - 00:31:03:03
And then I think one of the other things
that I think is a really interesting trend

00:31:03:03 - 00:31:07:02
is when I was a kid, people would ask you,
what do you want to be when you grow up?

00:31:07:02 - 00:31:08:12
And your options were

00:31:09:17 - 00:31:11:12
more limited than they might be today,

00:31:11:12 - 00:31:14:15
but really talking to kids about
what does it mean to be an influencer?

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:13
If your goal is to be an influencer
because you see these

00:31:17:13 - 00:31:19:04
these lives on social media

00:31:19:04 - 00:31:22:14
that really entice you into thinking that
that's where you want to be,

00:31:22:24 - 00:31:24:21
what does that mean
and how do you get there?

00:31:24:21 - 00:31:28:12
And having just general
developmental league, typical kinds

00:31:28:12 - 00:31:31:12
of conversations around,

00:31:32:09 - 00:31:34:20
how do you stay safe in that world?

00:31:34:20 - 00:31:38:16
You're making me think
in terms of young influencers,

00:31:38:23 - 00:31:41:23
kids teaching kids about this right

00:31:42:18 - 00:31:45:09
now. Kendall, it's hundred.

00:31:45:09 - 00:31:48:21
Yeah, it's very interesting
because there is, some research

00:31:48:21 - 00:31:50:06
that's coming out of the UK.

00:31:50:06 - 00:31:54:10
It it hasn't been published yet,
but it was conducted and

00:31:54:19 - 00:31:59:07
and what that research found
is that parent led

00:31:59:10 - 00:32:04:03
internet safety
education is most likely to prevent,

00:32:05:03 - 00:32:08:01
a child from experiencing a major online
harm.

00:32:08:01 - 00:32:12:00
I've never seen,
you know, any result before.

00:32:12:00 - 00:32:14:00
And so we often assume it did.

00:32:14:00 - 00:32:17:10
Look at the education
by friends of internet safety

00:32:17:10 - 00:32:20:19
and also education, internet
safety, education by schools.

00:32:21:02 - 00:32:25:09
But they found that it was internet
safety education by parents,

00:32:25:16 - 00:32:28:16
parent led guidelines
that were most likely

00:32:29:03 - 00:32:32:20
to prevent a significant online
harm to a child.

00:32:32:20 - 00:32:37:10
And so I think that we need to start
to get that message out to parents

00:32:37:22 - 00:32:41:04
and make sure that parents have access

00:32:41:10 - 00:32:45:10
to understand how children
are being abused in digital spaces,

00:32:45:10 - 00:32:49:01
so that they can work with their children
actively to help keep them safe.

00:32:49:07 - 00:32:53:13
I'm not you know, I fully support internet
safety education in schools.

00:32:53:13 - 00:32:59:04
I also agree with Doctor Abdu that we need
to, you know, support peers

00:32:59:12 - 00:33:02:18
at having good knowledge
and so they take care of one another.

00:33:03:00 - 00:33:06:24
But I think that we need to, you know,
recognize the results of that research

00:33:06:24 - 00:33:09:05
about the importance of parents
partnering with kids,

00:33:09:05 - 00:33:11:22
setting up these guidelines
and educating them.

00:33:11:22 - 00:33:15:03
I know I've heard from parents
who very much want to have that role,

00:33:16:13 - 00:33:20:04
you know, but may not know quite
what to do.

00:33:20:24 - 00:33:23:04
Your report also talks about

00:33:23:04 - 00:33:26:16
when we've been unable to prevent

00:33:27:06 - 00:33:30:18
or to educate
so that these events don't happen,

00:33:31:09 - 00:33:34:09
and we've got someone
who's been seriously victimized.

00:33:34:20 - 00:33:37:05
How are we doing in terms of support

00:33:37:05 - 00:33:40:05
to those victims?

00:33:40:12 - 00:33:42:09
Well, the medical providers

00:33:42:09 - 00:33:47:06
who see these kids routinely
say that we're not doing a very good job.

00:33:47:06 - 00:33:48:05
And I think part of

00:33:48:05 - 00:33:52:01
that is because, as I've mentioned before,
this is a multi-disciplinary issue.

00:33:52:01 - 00:33:55:24
You might have a child
who has been abused or neglected at home.

00:33:56:08 - 00:33:59:17
You might have a child
who's struggling with substance misuse.

00:34:00:06 - 00:34:03:21
The dynamics of exploitation
are complicated

00:34:03:21 - 00:34:05:21
and different than other types of abuse.

00:34:05:21 - 00:34:10:04
So sometimes kids don't even appreciate
that they've been exploited.

00:34:10:04 - 00:34:13:06
And they may,
like I mentioned earlier, trust

00:34:13:06 - 00:34:16:14
or even like the person who's responsible
for that exploitation.

00:34:16:14 - 00:34:21:05
So there are so many different places
where you have to intervene,

00:34:21:19 - 00:34:25:00
and it's already hard enough to find just

00:34:25:23 - 00:34:29:10
substance misuse treatment or mental
health treatment for an individual.

00:34:29:10 - 00:34:34:03
When you add on these other layers,
it becomes even more complicated.

00:34:34:10 - 00:34:39:09
This has got to be something that's tough
for a kid to admit has happened to them.

00:34:39:18 - 00:34:40:12
Exactly.

00:34:40:12 - 00:34:41:13
Very tough.

00:34:41:13 - 00:34:44:13
A lot of shame, a lot of denial.

00:34:44:21 - 00:34:45:17
It's really tough.

00:34:47:24 - 00:34:49:11
And sometimes they might not

00:34:49:11 - 00:34:53:06
think that they're being victimized
and their brains have not processed

00:34:53:06 - 00:34:56:07
this or conceptualized it
in the way that an adult

00:34:56:07 - 00:34:59:07
brain is thinking about it.

00:35:00:12 - 00:35:03:21
So you've made
a number of recommendations.

00:35:04:17 - 00:35:07:17
This report goes to the UN.

00:35:08:06 - 00:35:10:10
I want to ask what happens next.

00:35:10:10 - 00:35:14:01
But first, is this something
that's publicly available?

00:35:14:01 - 00:35:17:06
Warren, can people see this?

00:35:17:06 - 00:35:19:06
Does it live on a website?

00:35:19:06 - 00:35:21:22
Has it been published in that way yet?

00:35:21:22 - 00:35:22:08
Yeah.

00:35:22:08 - 00:35:23:08
So it's already it's

00:35:23:08 - 00:35:26:08
already been filed with the UN Committee
on the rights of the child.

00:35:26:11 - 00:35:29:01
And, it, as I understand it,

00:35:29:01 - 00:35:32:01
will be posted by that committee.

00:35:32:15 - 00:35:35:15
There was supposed to be a,

00:35:36:13 - 00:35:39:13
you know, what's called a precession,

00:35:39:18 - 00:35:41:01
work group.

00:35:41:01 - 00:35:44:01
But unfortunately,
due to the funding crisis at the UN

00:35:44:01 - 00:35:50:01
and as a result of, members
not paying their full dues, that session

00:35:50:01 - 00:35:54:01
that precession had to be rescheduled,
and we don't have a new date.

00:35:54:01 - 00:35:58:15
But in the meanwhile, the camp center
has posted this on our website and folks

00:35:58:15 - 00:36:02:11
are encouraged to visit the camps
on our website and and download it there.

00:36:02:21 - 00:36:07:20
And, you know,
there's a wonderful opportunity here.

00:36:07:20 - 00:36:14:02
You know, when you are facing a crisis
that is an inherent opportunity.

00:36:14:02 - 00:36:17:24
And certainly the United States
and the entire world is facing a crisis

00:36:18:00 - 00:36:22:04
of a significant increase in child sex
abuse because of technological,

00:36:23:00 - 00:36:25:04
changes over the last 20 years.

00:36:25:04 - 00:36:29:01
And it gives us an opportunity
to really try and focus on

00:36:29:01 - 00:36:34:02
what's happening and come up
with, solutions to this problem.

00:36:34:02 - 00:36:38:00
And this report is trying to contribute
to coming up with those solutions

00:36:38:00 - 00:36:41:15
by identifying where it is
that there's room for improvement.

00:36:42:21 - 00:36:44:01
So the

00:36:44:01 - 00:36:47:21
camp center website is camp center.org.

00:36:47:21 - 00:36:52:11
That's KMP center.org.

00:36:52:11 - 00:36:55:21
The report is called
the Supplementary report

00:36:55:21 - 00:36:59:21
Perspectives of Frontline Service
Professionals on United States Compliance

00:37:00:09 - 00:37:02:07
with the Optional Protocol
to the convention

00:37:02:07 - 00:37:05:07
on the rights of the child,
on the Sale of Children,

00:37:05:08 - 00:37:07:23
Child Prostitution and Child Pornography.

00:37:07:23 - 00:37:12:15
And again, that is available
on the Camp Center website.

00:37:13:03 - 00:37:15:13
It will eventually be available,
it sounds like, through the U.N.

00:37:15:13 - 00:37:18:18
itself, but Camp Center Dawg

00:37:19:09 - 00:37:21:20
is where you would find that.

00:37:21:20 - 00:37:24:20
I'd like to ask each one of you then

00:37:26:00 - 00:37:29:00
can you just give us a closing thought?

00:37:29:21 - 00:37:32:22
You're going to have people listening
to this podcast

00:37:34:08 - 00:37:37:11
in the United States,
but elsewhere in the world as well.

00:37:37:11 - 00:37:41:22
They may be in
very many different professions and roles.

00:37:42:10 - 00:37:45:01
There may be parents
learning about this issue.

00:37:46:10 - 00:37:48:11
What's your call to action, each of you?

00:37:48:11 - 00:37:50:05
Could you just give us a closing thought?

00:37:50:05 - 00:37:51:15
What is your call to action?

00:37:51:15 - 00:37:54:15
If I'm somebody who cares about all this,

00:37:55:05 - 00:37:58:05
what can I do going forward?

00:38:00:24 - 00:38:03:11
Well, if you're a concerned citizen,

00:38:03:11 - 00:38:06:24
get involved at the local level

00:38:06:24 - 00:38:09:24
around your state's laws.

00:38:10:09 - 00:38:14:14
I think many of us feel like
if we can address

00:38:14:14 - 00:38:18:09
this at the federal level,
we can at least start at the state level.

00:38:18:09 - 00:38:24:15
And if enough states get involved
with the regulation of the tech industry,

00:38:24:15 - 00:38:26:19
that may put some pressure
at the federal level,

00:38:26:19 - 00:38:28:22
although this is being addressed
at the federal level.

00:38:28:22 - 00:38:31:22
That's just another way that,

00:38:32:21 - 00:38:34:09
community members can get involved.

00:38:34:09 - 00:38:37:14
We here in Colorado have had
multiple bills over the last couple

00:38:37:14 - 00:38:41:22
of sessions, some positive,
some some did not move forward.

00:38:42:17 - 00:38:47:22
But this is an active conversation
with more legislators right now.

00:38:47:22 - 00:38:51:03
And so if you're interested, get involved.

00:38:51:03 - 00:38:52:07
Call your representative.

00:38:52:07 - 00:38:56:10
Ask them what they're doing
to help protect kids from online

00:38:56:10 - 00:38:59:10
sexual exploitation
or other types of exploitation.

00:39:00:04 - 00:39:01:08
Thank you for that, Denise.

00:39:01:08 - 00:39:02:11
What's your call to action?

00:39:03:11 - 00:39:04:08
I agree with

00:39:04:08 - 00:39:08:14
everything that Antonia has just said
and would say, talk to your kids

00:39:09:00 - 00:39:13:04
about the internet,
about applications, about safety

00:39:13:20 - 00:39:17:12
and having people who are either
within the family structure,

00:39:17:12 - 00:39:22:07
outside of the family structure
that kids know are safe, trusted adults

00:39:22:16 - 00:39:25:19
to try to help them
if something bad does happen

00:39:27:17 - 00:39:28:06
and war.

00:39:28:06 - 00:39:30:24
And what do you have to say
to our listeners?

00:39:30:24 - 00:39:33:12
Yeah, I would just add that,

00:39:33:12 - 00:39:37:16
in addition to being involved
at the state and local level,

00:39:37:21 - 00:39:42:13
I really do want people to reach out
to the members of Congress that,

00:39:42:16 - 00:39:45:07
you know,
our congressional leaders are very clear

00:39:45:07 - 00:39:48:07
that they respond
to constituents requests.

00:39:48:12 - 00:39:53:13
And if people call as people, email them,
if people contact them about

00:39:53:13 - 00:39:58:07
their concerns, they will pass legislation
to address those concerns.

00:39:58:11 - 00:40:02:02
Right now, there's some federal
legislation that the camp senator supports

00:40:02:02 - 00:40:05:12
and has been working on advancing,
called the Kids Online Safety Act.

00:40:05:18 - 00:40:08:14
Kosa. And that is coming out for,

00:40:08:14 - 00:40:11:14
a vote potentially
during this congressional session.

00:40:11:14 - 00:40:15:24
And I encourage people
to contact their members of Congress

00:40:15:24 - 00:40:18:24
and encourage them
to vote in favor of Kosa.

00:40:19:00 - 00:40:21:11
It's not going to address
all of these problems,

00:40:21:11 - 00:40:25:03
but it will be
the first federal legislation

00:40:25:12 - 00:40:31:08
to, substantially address children's
safety online since the late 1990s.

00:40:31:14 - 00:40:32:19
So it's long overdue.

00:40:34:10 - 00:40:35:04
Thank you.

00:40:35:04 - 00:40:36:10
Thank you all. Thank you.

00:40:36:10 - 00:40:39:10
Warren Binford, Denise Abdoo and Antonio.

00:40:39:12 - 00:40:43:07
So, I suspect,
will follow the progress of this

00:40:43:07 - 00:40:46:11
as it moves forward and as events develop.

00:40:46:11 - 00:40:48:23
So let's keep in touch.

00:40:48:23 - 00:40:54:13
I could imagine another podcast
episode down the line as this all evolves.

00:40:54:13 - 00:40:55:03
Keep in touch.

00:40:55:03 - 00:40:56:18
Let us know what you discover next.

00:40:56:18 - 00:40:58:04
Thank you.

00:40:58:04 - 00:40:58:17
Thank you.

00:40:58:17 - 00:41:01:17
And to our listeners, do stay in touch.

00:41:01:21 - 00:41:04:23
Reach out to us at the Kempe Center
as you engage in this effort,

00:41:04:23 - 00:41:07:23
and join us again for this podcast.

00:41:07:23 - 00:41:10:17
Soon it off
and we'll be glad to be with you.

00:41:10:17 - 00:41:13:17
This has been Radio Kempe.

00:41:16:16 - 00:41:19:05
Thank you for listening to Radio Kempe.

00:41:19:05 - 00:41:22:11
Stay connected
by visiting our website at Kempe

00:41:22:11 - 00:41:25:16
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