The Dream Is Us: Bridging to Relationship: A Conversation with Michelle Davis, MS, LPC, Director of Organizational Impact and Development at the Kempe Center

When we journey to distant lands—places rich with unfamiliar customs, cultures, and ways of being—we often pause to observe, to learn, and to honor the rhythms of life that differ from our own. Why? Because something deep within us longs to be in “right relationship” with others. Unconsciously, we hold a collective dream of being better together.  

In this episode of Radio Kempe, we invite you to explore a different kind of travel: the inward journey into our own internal landscapes and the emotional geographies of those around us. Just as we navigate foreign terrain with curiosity and care, we can approach our relationships—with colleagues, loved ones, and communities—with the same spirit of discovery and respect.  

Through the metaphor of traveling and bridge-building, we’ll uncover how intentional connection can heal fractures, foster understanding, and transform the way we live and work together. Join us for this conversation as we chart a course toward deeper relationships—within our teams, our organizations, and ourselves.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:15
Unknown
You're listening to Radio Kempe. We value the sense of community that connects people and helps them find ways to move forward. Join us on our journey to prevent child abuse and neglect.

00:00:22:12 - 00:00:48:01
Unknown
Welcome and welcome back. This is Radio Kempe. I'm Kendall Marlow with the Kempe Center for the Prevention and Treatment of Child Abuse and Neglect. Thanks for joining us. This episode of Radio Kempe asks us to journey beyond our own professional and personal islands to explore relationships in different places where we find different people. How do we do that?

00:00:48:03 - 00:01:10:16
Unknown
It's looking beyond our own world to build new relationships, a policy challenge. Where is it a professional challenge? Where does it require something personal that comes from within each of us? And is there an approach to this challenge that an individual or an organization can be a part of? With us all today is Michele Davis. Thanks for being here.

00:01:10:16 - 00:01:38:10
Unknown
Michelle Davis. Thank you. Glad to be here. Michele, you're on the faculty of the Kemp Center, and you also serve as director of organizational impact and development. You've had a wide range of experience as a child welfare professional and educator, and as a consultant and coach for both individuals and organizations. Where did this latest journey begin for you?

00:01:38:11 - 00:02:16:13
Unknown
What set you off on this new path? I believe what set me off is recognizing through the work that we were doing for, race intelligence, which was our cue, is wondering if it could spread its wings a little bit. So if I think about our cue as an embodied, entity or idea, was it too small for what needed to happen for us as professionals, for our people in the world, for people that were trying to create impact and have change?

00:02:16:15 - 00:02:49:10
Unknown
So the question was, is it too small? Has it outgrown itself in terms of the naming convention of it? So I think I really started on this journey back in September or October, just really thinking about if something more was trying to happen through this kind of coaching engagement. I've heard you talk about this and use a metaphor of a bridge.

00:02:49:12 - 00:03:20:07
Unknown
Yeah. How does that work? What were a bridge? To where? To what? What kind of bridge is there? I hold the belief that nothing can really happen or happen successfully unless we are working in relationship with one another. And it's one of the predominant things that keeps us separated or disconnected in some way. Like, I can be talking with someone and it can appear that we are in connection or relationship.

00:03:20:07 - 00:03:50:24
Unknown
But the question is, are we really? And how do we, how do we move the things that sort of get in our way to be truly connected through people, ideas, cultures, even parts of ourselves, parts of ourselves that can be vulnerable and really reach for connection and that connection can drive, really powerful work. But a lot of us sort of lock ourselves off from that because it is pretty vulnerable.

00:03:51:01 - 00:04:19:02
Unknown
And when we lock ourselves off from that, we're unlocking potential. We're walking away possibility and our experiences, the diversity of us as human beings, is something that should be celebrated, something that should be, appreciated and acknowledged. And how do we use that to help us become stronger people, stronger organizations, help make it make systems stronger, help to support the strengths of families and children.

00:04:19:04 - 00:04:45:22
Unknown
How do we do that in partnership with one another? If we're so disconnected from one another? So I think the bridging metaphor is how do we move past, our intolerances, who we show up to be or things that are in our world, to create connection, to overcome these obstacles, to reach towards a future that we all want.

00:04:46:00 - 00:05:27:05
Unknown
That's the commonality that we have with our things, that sort of get in our way, and we get stuck on those things, and we build up these intolerances for these things. Some of like a food, you have a food intolerance, but the more you introduce it to yourself, maybe that tolerance, that intolerance goes down. So I think of the bridging metaphor as a way to create opportunities to move people and goals and ideas through transformation that allows us to start to navigate our relationships with them one another, to create safety, to create a foundation of trust, to, do those kinds of things that will help us be better together.

00:05:27:07 - 00:06:02:02
Unknown
And I'm hearing you talk about the goal is very much being relationship. We're pack animals, aren't we? Yes. Yes we are. I was at an event earlier today with a whole bunch of kids and a whole bunch of families. Full disclosure, Michelle Davis I was at the zoo. Yeah, and just seeing everybody be with each other, and it just the joy in just being outside, being together and being with somebody they know and love on a journey of some kind.

00:06:02:04 - 00:06:23:19
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I love that you're bringing in the animal, piece because I think of, like, zebras when we look at a pack of Libras, they all look the same. You know, it's this pack of zebras. They're moving together to either run away from prey or they're in herds trying to eat, their community of zebras. But they're also very different.

00:06:23:21 - 00:06:47:12
Unknown
They they. When you look at their stripes, each stripe of that is very different. So how do we, as human beings, get to a place where we can appreciate those different stripes and not have a sense of intolerance about those stripes? And if we can do that, then we can create a sense of community where we can start to move together in cooperation.

00:06:47:14 - 00:07:06:06
Unknown
We can start to cultivate the kinds of things that will help us create the kind of world in the kind of future that we want for ourselves and that we want for children. Are there obstacles to that? Why is that not already? The why is why is everybody not as happy as everybody seemed to be today at the zoo?

00:07:06:08 - 00:07:31:10
Unknown
Oh, the complexity, the metaphor, the the bridge is a metaphor because that construction of a bridge is super complex. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of engineering. We think back to the days when, before they even have the capacity to make bridges, you're on one side. What comes to mind is San Francisco. The fact that the Golden Gate Bridge is very long.

00:07:31:12 - 00:07:49:09
Unknown
And so if I'm over on the San Francisco side, I can see the trees over in Marin County. I can see what's over there. But I can't get there unless I get on a boat. And what if I don't have access to a boat? But if I'm looking over there, I might be curious if I can see what's happening over there.

00:07:49:09 - 00:08:12:08
Unknown
It might spark some curiosity. It might, make me wonder what's happening over there. And are there things over there that I can introduce myself to, or people that live over there that can introduce themselves, them to something that I have over here? But how do we get there? So the construction of a bridge is super complex.

00:08:12:10 - 00:08:38:12
Unknown
How is the construction a relationship? It is super complex. And what makes it so complex is because we all come with our own diverse experiences. It's not necessarily just about identity. It's not about, the visible differences of us. It's like the zebra we all, we're human beings, and we kind of all look the same, but we all have different fingerprints.

00:08:38:14 - 00:09:02:14
Unknown
We all have different DNA that make us different. We all have different experiences. I mean, I grew up in a home where there were five of us. I have four siblings, have four siblings. My sister passed away, but we were raised by the same parents. But we're all different. We're all different. So there's a complexity in how we, develop as human beings.

00:09:02:14 - 00:09:34:04
Unknown
And that complexity creates these experiences that we attach to, and those experiences become our truth. And those truths create intolerances until we can start to equip ourselves to sort of let some of that go. Does it mean that I have to let go of my experiences, or what I know to be, useful for me, but it it calls for me to create space for what's happening over there.

00:09:34:06 - 00:09:56:09
Unknown
I use, you know, the bridge is kind of like a land metaphor when we travel. If I were to go over to what, say, Dubai, I'd have to admit who I am to be in that culture. There are certain things that I would have to do differently and honor of that culture. I'm not saying that that culture is the culture that I want to be a part of, but I want to honor what's happening over there.

00:09:56:11 - 00:10:17:09
Unknown
And I think we get stuck in ways of being that create a level of intolerance that doesn't have me want to have me honoring what's over there. But I can equip myself. Before I go over to Dubai. I want to research what's the culture like? I want to know what's what do I need to wear? What kinds of foods are do we need to eat over there?

00:10:17:09 - 00:10:48:04
Unknown
So these are sort of metaphors that help me to start to construct the bridge that allows me to travel well over there, allows me to travel well and be a good tourist or a good visitor in that land. We can't we don't do that because I think we're we're not pausing long enough to do that equipping part to really think about what's in the way with me that allows me to be a good tourist over there.

00:10:48:06 - 00:11:07:10
Unknown
And how do I get how do I become aware of that? How do I notice what needs to shift? Doesn't mean that I need to change everything about me, or change my beliefs on all of that. It's just allowing me to create space and opening for being a good tourist, or being a good visitor in someone else's land.

00:11:07:12 - 00:11:40:24
Unknown
And that's the metaphor for relationships. If we can get to a place where there's complexity and there's opportunity, there's complexity, and there's also commonality, how do we start to swim in both of those places so that we can reduce what seems overly complex to get to a common goal that we all have, that we all sort of like embody love, compassion, harmony, hope, joy, all of those things you mentioned joy in being at the zoo.

00:11:41:01 - 00:12:22:22
Unknown
Everyone wants to experience joy. So how can we get to those kinds of elements that create a foundation for us? To start to cross that bridge, you use the verb equip that we need to be equipped to do that. How are you endeavoring to equip people and organizations to do what you're describing? It first starts with me. I noticed yesterday, as I've been thinking about this, kind of appointment with the doctor, and they were going to call me back and yesterday I got to about 450 and no one had called me back.

00:12:22:24 - 00:12:42:17
Unknown
So I picked up the phone and called, and the person told me, oh, I'm sorry. She's gone. You know, the person I was supposed to call me back, she's gone. And I felt myself getting annoyed, like, okay, this is the first time I've attended this doctor's. I've been to this doctor's office. I'm like, you're not setting up a good feeling for me.

00:12:42:19 - 00:13:02:08
Unknown
And then she tells me that she's going out of town, so she won't be here tomorrow, though, because I've been thinking about this. I said, okay, I feel intolerance coming up in me. I had a certain expectation that you were going to call me and give me certain information, and that did not happen. So I said, okay, what's the bridge for me?

00:13:02:08 - 00:13:23:13
Unknown
What's the thing that I need to let go of to create more empathy for what might be happening over there? So I started to do some self-talk. Okay, she's gone on vacation. Maybe, she was excited and just, you know, she had a lot of things to do, so she just didn't get to me. So that starts to put me with a little bit more empathy to understand what's happening over there.

00:13:23:15 - 00:13:56:06
Unknown
And so I felt that intolerance kind of decrease. What else might be possible? What else might be possible. So when I started to do that, I'm like, okay, there might be a little bit more understanding in me now for what's happening over there. That's sort of like a template for what we need to start to do, as, within organizations is how do we start to understand one another and create space for what else is possible, what might be happening over there?

00:13:56:08 - 00:14:19:01
Unknown
I had a choice to stand in my my irritation with not being called back. I had a choice to stand there, but that wouldn't have been building a bridge. I haven't talked to that person, but I'm trying to build a bridge for myself to be continue to be open to to support what relationship will look like, with this doctor's office going forward.

00:14:19:03 - 00:14:43:01
Unknown
But if I'm in tolerant that I might say I might be like, okay, I'm canceling you on someplace else, and we need to not do that because that doesn't allow me to be in relationship with this office and sort of like, navigate my own challenges that live in me to be able to be in relationship or partnership with what's over there on the other side.

00:14:43:03 - 00:15:11:06
Unknown
So when I think about that example, just that just happened, I think what needs to happen within organizations is creating space and creating time to really recognize and notice what's happening over here in me that keeps me out of relationship with the person that works in the cubicle next to me, or with the family that I'm trying to help heal.

00:15:11:08 - 00:15:38:08
Unknown
Or the child that may have just been abused. And I'm trying to connect with other professionals. There's something that comes up in us that creates this intolerance. And I want to explore that because there's so much information in recognizing what's that intolerance that's getting created in me. And how do I reduce that in honor of what's trying to happen, which is the ultimate goal of what's trying to happen between us?

00:15:38:08 - 00:16:11:19
Unknown
We have a goal together. We do. All of us do. As human beings, we get, misaligned on what we think that goal is. No matter what faction or ideology you may have on anything, there's an aligned goal that we have. And how can we start to talk about that and use relationship as a way to navigate the intolerances that we're building, that to support what the that goal is to support achieving what that goal is.

00:16:11:21 - 00:16:44:01
Unknown
So the the bridging, it's like when we when I think about the bridging metaphor, there are tons of tools that go into developing or creating that bridge to constructing that bridge. So coaching is one way. And when I think about bridging through relationship or two, relationship coaching is one way to start to equip yourself in being able to construct that bridge for yourself and then ready yourself to cross it and explore that other lane.

00:16:44:03 - 00:17:11:09
Unknown
When when we hear folks talk about this kind of thing, we hear a lot about leadership. You've done a lot of organizational coaching. I know. So how do you do this? Do you go down the organizational chart and start with the executive director and equip them, and then move on down? Don't somebody needs to lead this, don't they?

00:17:11:11 - 00:17:34:02
Unknown
How does that work? Yes. Yeah, that's a good question. It's a it's a consensus reality based questions like what's the process. And so yes, every team every organization is different. But I do think it often starts with the leader setting the tone and the leader setting the tone for what they're wanting for their organization, that we want to be in better collaboration.

00:17:34:02 - 00:18:01:15
Unknown
We want to be in better communication with one another. We want to achieve our goals together, and recognizing what's getting in the way of that. So when an organization can start to recognize the culture that will support getting it to where it wants to be, and the people are the lifeblood of an organization, and if we are collaborating and working well together, then something needs to shift.

00:18:01:21 - 00:18:28:06
Unknown
And that's the opportunity for coaching so leaders can set the tone for what needs to happen or what they're wanting to happen. And then as a coach, we start to work with the leaders. We work, you know, with the leaders of the organization, whoever that those are identified today and then start to cascade down to the larger, aspects or larger sections of the organization that can also participate in this.

00:18:28:08 - 00:18:57:14
Unknown
For bridging through relationship, we want to do organizational transformation and shifts well, while also recognizing that when you start to change people, you also start to change practice in culture. So it's not just for like, let's say an intact team. That's great. Yes, it's for that, but it's also for individuals that see themselves as really wanting to create bridges between the differences that exist between us.

00:18:57:16 - 00:19:31:11
Unknown
It's for that, the, the clerical staff member that recognizes I want more. I want to feel more purpose driven in my role at work or in life. So how can I start to put myself to create these bridges between the differences that exist between me and whatever's over there? If you are, a caseworker and for child welfare organization and you're recognizing that there's something more that I want to engage in, I want to be at purpose in what I'm doing, and I see what's getting in the way.

00:19:31:13 - 00:19:53:05
Unknown
And we want you to join a cohort, this coaching opportunity. And we'll have individual folks that are part of the cohort that'll be able to do this, as well as intact teams or organizations that also want to do this, because to me, it's about creating ripples. So the ripples have to start somewhere. And it's it's within organizations and it's also within individuals.

00:19:53:05 - 00:20:17:24
Unknown
And how can we use all of that to create these ripples, to create transformation in the areas that we want? The fifth system. Stranger. It sounds like you're saying that leadership is not just defined by title. I'm thinking of a couple of places where I've worked that had great organizational cultures, and I think the person most responsible for each of those organizations was the receptionist.

00:20:18:01 - 00:20:38:22
Unknown
But yeah, when you walked in the door, there was a tone. There was a look on their face that told you what kind of a place this was going to be. Exactly. It's it's the I use the language of like the energetic midscale that you want to carry. It's like what's the energy that I want to give to people.

00:20:38:24 - 00:21:04:22
Unknown
And that receptionist is the door there at the front door. And how they show up with everybody creates that first impression, that first story that we're going to have about that organization. So yes, it's not just about a, a title in terms of leadership, because I think we all have the capacity to be leaders. It's what are we choosing to lead in?

00:21:04:24 - 00:21:25:21
Unknown
If we're choosing to lead and fill in the blank, this is for you. If we're choosing to lead an organization, this is also for you. So it's not just title, but it's an opportunity to say, I want to be at purpose and the things that I do. And with that purpose, I'm ready to figure out how to lead and lead through building bridges that navigate.

00:21:25:24 - 00:21:59:06
Unknown
That helped me navigate the relationships that we exist within. You've been doing work along these lines with organizations for some time now. It's evolving. Your approach is evolving. Yeah. And these organizations are evolving at the same time. What's been your experience? I know you worked with a group of professionals involved with the courts in a state, you've worked with different kinds of organizations.

00:21:59:08 - 00:22:29:01
Unknown
Has this stuff been evaluated? Do you get feedback? How are we doing? Yes and yes, it is going through an evaluation. And we are getting feedback and everyone is experienced can be different. You know, that's the diversity of who we are. We take in things based upon who we are. And the feedback that we received has been very positive.

00:22:29:02 - 00:22:50:18
Unknown
I mean, I know that there are some that have had different experiences based upon things that are happening in their world, things that are happening in our world, and expectations that we all have about engaging in something that I would say overwhelmingly, the feedback has been pretty positive. It's been about transformation. It's been about thinking about things differently.

00:22:50:20 - 00:23:11:12
Unknown
When I can get a group or a person to say, I never thought about it that way. What is it that I'm going to do with this now that you've, like, pricked my brain a little bit? Like, yes, that's the space that I want people to be in. I don't come with the answers. I come with the questions.

00:23:11:14 - 00:23:43:03
Unknown
And the questions provoke, provoke thought and reflection and perspective. And if the questions that I'm asking as a coach create pathways for change and opportunity for transformation, then that success to me, and the feedback that we received through this evaluation process has been indicative of transformation. But you know what's also beautiful? Every one of them has been different.

00:23:43:05 - 00:24:14:13
Unknown
Because that transformation internal to yourself. So that transformation might be I need to speak up more. How do I speak up more? How do I create those opportunities to say something more when I'm in a a conversation? So that might be someone's way of transforming another person's might be, I'm going to, I don't know, initiate this nonprofit because I feel called to do that.

00:24:14:15 - 00:24:37:22
Unknown
Because there's something that powerful about me being able to do that. So it's very differentiated and diverse in terms of what that transformation is for that person. But that's the beauty of the work that we're doing, because it's it's internal work that really reflects outwardly in, in the aspects of the world that you, the spheres of influence that you exist in.

00:24:37:24 - 00:25:07:14
Unknown
Then different for different people. You know, you're talking about the person who needs to speak up more. I'm a talker and I need to remind myself to listen, but that's my journey, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your journey through the provocation of questions and building awareness that has you reflecting on your own story, your own history, your own goals, your own wants in this work.

00:25:07:14 - 00:25:29:16
Unknown
Because we ask people like, what's your dream? Why are you here? What do you want to be different? That difference? It's different for each person. We have a common goal. We might want to see something different in the world. That's that common goal. But how we achieve that, what's needed inside of me to achieve that might be different than what's needed inside of you.

00:25:29:18 - 00:25:53:08
Unknown
So we're grappling with that. We're wrestling with that through this coaching opportunity to help explore how you navigate those differences inside of you, those perspectives that live inside of you, and how do you do that outside of you as well in relationship? And again, that's the bridging. But ultimately it's you finding your path to achieve the purpose that you are.

00:25:53:08 - 00:26:28:18
Unknown
You are here for that. You are driving towards, and that's what's so powerful, I think. And I've heard one of the coaches that I work with in this work, she said it's tough. What's so, different about, bridging through relationship, which was arc. What was what's so different about it? It's such powerful internal work that is expressed outwardly through relationship because the cohorts are about how do you start to do this with other people?

00:26:28:20 - 00:26:55:11
Unknown
How do you take what you're learning inside of you and start to equip yourself and expressing that outside of you? So many coaching programs don't do it that way. It's more about the one on one coaching inside or the team coaching for organizations or just systems that you know you want to build trust as a team. All of those things are important, but this is more around how we want to work in the world.

00:26:55:11 - 00:27:18:07
Unknown
The sphere of the world. And when I say world, I'm not talking about I don't want people to think that it's like this broader, impossible dream. But my world right now is how can I influence based upon my role and the place that I'm in? That's my world, and everyone else has a world that they want to influence or impact as well.

00:27:18:13 - 00:27:43:16
Unknown
And this is a coaching opportunity that can help you get really centered on that and how you do it through relationship. So if someone's out there listening to this and they realize they need to build some of those bridges for their people, their organization, their group, whatever it might be, or even them as an individual, what is this thing called, and who do they reach out to and how to become involved?

00:27:43:18 - 00:28:10:10
Unknown
I would say, it's called bridging to a relationship. There are a couple or you can reach out to me, email is not my favorite thing, but I will, just gets very, I'll give out, my email address and, our coordinators email address, but I just want to say one other thing really quickly.

00:28:10:12 - 00:28:38:03
Unknown
If you are questioning if anyone is listening and they're questioning me, how do I how do I overcome my own reluctance to share a difficult thought or difficult experience that I've had with someone? How do I do that? And this is the coaching for you. If you are exploring, how do I not offend someone that's different from me?

00:28:38:05 - 00:29:16:04
Unknown
This is the coaching for you. If you're trying to understand how do I be a part of something and what, you know, community or group, but I have a fear of offending or a fear of not being accepted. This is the coaching for you. It's about all of that because that's who we are as humans. Try to navigate these relationships and find a sense of comfort through vulnerability, a sense of courage, while also being a little bit scared, a sense of joy, while also feeling a little bit of like, unsure.

00:29:16:06 - 00:29:56:15
Unknown
So this is the coaching that will help you start to navigate those kinds of dynamics personally and professionally. My email address is Michelle.Davis@cuanschutz.edu That edu there that edu and then let me spell Anschutz for folks who may not know that. So what she just gave you was Michelle Dot Davis at CU for anschutz.edu.

00:29:56:17 - 00:30:38:00
Unknown
Yes. And, our coordinator, her name is Cassondra Bright. She's great. We have a dedicated email address, but I think that's going to be changing, so I don't want to give that one out. Her email is Cassondra.Bright@cuanschutz.edu. I love what you just said about an impossible dream being sometimes so intimidating that we cannot even start or try.

00:30:38:02 - 00:31:22:18
Unknown
Can you leave us? Michelle Davis? What is the possible dream? The possible dream that you have for all of us through this work? It's us. We are the dream. We just need to recognize that and put aside our, Internal weapons and external weapons. Whatever it is that keeps us from crossing that bridge. If we can start to let those go or mitigate for them, then we can start to see ourselves in this dream.

00:31:24:18 - 00:31:49:15
Unknown
Thank you. Michelle Davis. I have a feeling we're going to stay in touch on radio camp about this as this moves forward. Don't you think? I would love to. Yeah. Let us know where you travel next, Michelle, and how we can come with. Thank you. Thank you. And to our listeners, please do stay connected and reach out to us at the Kempe Center as you move forward in your own work.

00:31:49:17 - 00:32:00:22
Unknown
Then join us again on this podcast soon and often we look forward to that. This has been Radio Kempe.

00:32:00:22 - 00:32:17:12
Unknown
Thank you for listening to Radio Kempe. Stay connected by visiting our website at Kempecenter.org and follow us on social media.