Be Well> Do Well> Stay Awhile: Leadership's role in creating a culture of resilience and wellness.

The last of the three drivers of workforce resilience is the critical role that leaders play in creating a culture where resilience and well-being are valued and supported. Research tells us that compared to client-related burnout, staff experience higher levels of burnout related to agency-level factors. Workplace-related burnout was also more strongly associated with job stress, job dissatisfaction, and intent to leave. If your organization is struggling with turnover, leadership must lead the way to create a culture that encourages, supports, and models thriving not just surviving. Interested in learning more about Be Well. Do Well. Stay Awhile. Visit our website www.kempecenter.org in the Our Work and/or Workforce Education and Innovation pages to learn more. 

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00:00:00:0 - 00:00:19:6
Unknown
You're listening to Radio Kempe. We value the sense of community that connects people and helps them find ways to move forward. Join us on our journey to prevent child abuse and neglect.

00:00:23:0 - 00:00:52:1
Unknown
Welcome and welcome back. This is Radio Kempe. I'm Kendall Marlow with the Kempe Center for the Prevention and Treatment of Child Abuse and Neglect. Thanks for being with us. In 2024, Radio Kempe has been traveling with you to discover new voices and learn new things. We're open to what we find. So thanks for coming with us. This episode is the fourth and final episode in a series of conversations with the Kempe Center's very own Dan Palmer.

00:00:52:2 - 00:01:14:9
Unknown
If you've been around for the first three episodes, you know that Dan is all about fighting the burnout, the turnover of the workforce in our field. He does not think that we're destined to a never ending cycle of that frustration, that burnout. Dan thinks we could do something about it. Dan Comer, welcome back. Thank you. Kendall. Thank you.

00:01:15:0 - 00:01:46:3
Unknown
I do think we can do something about it, but we have to definitely be intentional about it. So in that vein, Dan, in this first episode, you introduced us to an approach that you called a practical approach to workplace resiliency. And the banner here is be well, do well, stay a while. And you would identify three drivers of how employees can thrive and be resilient.

00:01:46:4 - 00:02:26:3
Unknown
You talked in our second episode then about what we can do as individuals. Simple practices like gratitude exercise, mindfulness, acts of kindness, social connections. Then on the next episode, we explored cultural studies strategies within an organization. Today we turn to what leadership can do. So we're focusing today on our leaders. Those of us, regardless of title or spot on an organizational chart, who can shape the tone and direction for our work together and maybe build some resiliency in the organization.

00:02:26:3 - 00:02:55:1
Unknown
Dan, can leaders really make a difference? They can. That's a great question. And leaders are necessary for, you know, if somebody buys into having a culture of resilience within their organization, if the leaders are not on board, it's not going to stick. it just doesn't. And they carry a lot of weight as far as whether anything you try to implement goes anywhere.

00:02:55:2 - 00:03:23:4
Unknown
They're not the only factor, but boy, they're a big factor. All of all three of these drivers have to be in play. at least in our experience for sure. Have to be in play for this to, take hold within an organization and and make a difference. And then before we go any further again, individuals, organizations and now leadership, this is all a part of an intervention that you've developed called be well do well.

00:03:23:4 - 00:03:47:3
Unknown
Stay a while. You have been working with organizations across fields across the country for a while now and having success with this work. Before we get deeper into what we can do with leaders, can you give us some contact information? If somebody out there is thinking, hey, I might want to engage with this and get a little help from Dan, how do they reach you?

00:03:47:3 - 00:04:14:8
Unknown
well, one thing they can do is go to the epicenter, that org website and look for the page that talks about be well, do well, stay a while and that'll give you some information. also, I'd love to talk to people and, you can just set up a meeting by emailing me at Daniel e-commerce. Com er at q an ach utc.edu and I have to spell that out when I'm typing.

00:04:15:1 - 00:04:40:8
Unknown
As a matter of fact. But, see you in Anschutz campus of, Colorado University of Colorado. So the campus center.org that's MPE center.org. Correct is the email address. And then daniel.com or at CU and should start edu. That's it. So leaders.

00:04:40:9 - 00:04:59:7
Unknown
How do they make a difference. How does this work and what do you do with them Dan. Well kind of let me let me start out by saying and and this is some research that came out recently, not two recently, a couple of years ago, I guess, which for me made a difference in the sense of how I looked at the work.

00:04:59:8 - 00:05:24:2
Unknown
And basically what it boils down to is there's when you think about child welfare work, there's two types of stress, inherent in child welfare work. One is the stress of the job itself, which, I mean, we're all familiar with that. It's very emotionally laden work. the job involves incredibly important decisions and the consequences of those decisions.

00:05:24:2 - 00:05:44:2
Unknown
You're working with families really at their worst times, often, oftentimes they're under a great deal of stress and and all that that entails working in that environment with that type of family. the lack of resources has been, you know, I've been doing this work for 40 plus years, and never have anyone ever said, oh, we have enough resources.

00:05:44:4 - 00:06:10:6
Unknown
So all of those things put together, that's that's the stress from doing the work. And it's good work and it's important work, but it's really, really hard work. And so that's one source of stress. And the other one which maybe people are familiar with, especially people in the field. But if you're if you're too far away from removed from the work, you might not think of this.

00:06:10:7 - 00:06:32:8
Unknown
The other stress, whereas the other stress can be called workplace stress. And so that's things like the organizational culture, what it feels like to work there, how things are done in that organization. This is this is the way things are done. Oftentimes that's not even said. But there's a you certainly learn that as you go along. There's a way that things work.

00:06:32:8 - 00:07:02:3
Unknown
Yeah. Because the way that things work, caseload sizes is a part of workplace stress. All the paperwork requirements that are well known in child welfare meetings. And I'll say meetings after meetings, after meetings, colleague relationships and public perception of child welfare in a community is part of that workplace stress. And then, you know, in a nutshell, the level of support felt by the people doing the actual hands on work.

00:07:02:4 - 00:07:36:7
Unknown
All of those are what we call or consider, the workplace stress. So which of those is more important? You talking about stress of the job itself, but then you've just laid out stress within the workplace. Given what we all know about child welfare job itself that drives these issues, right then here is trauma. Secondary trauma you're dealing sometimes with, you know, as you said, extremely stressful crisis situations for families.

00:07:36:8 - 00:08:06:2
Unknown
You're a child welfare caseworker long enough. You're going to deal with fatalities. Some of the tough, tough, tough outcomes of cases. That is what we have always thought drives our biggest challenges with our child welfare workforce. Yeah. Is that true? No. No it's not. Is it? Is it stressful? Yes. Are there people that burnout from doing that type of job for a period of time?

00:08:06:2 - 00:08:36:8
Unknown
For sure. And according to some of the newest research, compared to client related burnout, staff experience higher levels of burnout related to agency level factors. So it's the workplace. Yeah. And I mean, the more coaching I do within organizations, both at the supervisor leadership and caseworker level. Yeah, it is I mean, what people complain about is Jesus, I got too many meetings.

00:08:36:8 - 00:09:02:2
Unknown
oh, my God, the paperwork in this job, I mean, a lot of people, honestly, I've heard I've heard it from dozens of people leave the field not because of the work, not because of all the stress involved with nor comes with families in these kind of situations, but because they spend all their time doing the paperwork and they're not able to do the job that they wanted to do, basically, which is to work with families.

00:09:02:3 - 00:09:33:8
Unknown
And so those workplace centered, stressors, burnout from them, burnout from those kind of stressors are also more strongly associated with job stress and general job dissatisfaction, intent to leave. All those are things that come from not only, but more mostly from workplace related burnout, workplace related stress, more so than anything related to the client or to the actual cases.

00:09:33:9 - 00:10:17:4
Unknown
Right. And so and that's and that's why leadership plays a role. So how does this work? How can you this all sounds good and fine, but how does a leader benefit from being in touch with you. What's what's the approach here. Well it's it's a very, very, very coach centered, coaching centered, intervention at the leadership level. I really try to think of it, that leadership's job in creating a culture of resilience in the organization in a sentence is assessing and responding to those workplace contributions to burnout.

00:10:17:5 - 00:10:38:7
Unknown
and that's the most effective way to reduce or eliminate burnout in individual workers. You know, they set the policies. They, they they really have a big say. So on how the culture works or doesn't work within the organization. And then every organization is different. And that's that's why you have to start out with an assessment. What is the culture like in this organization?

00:10:38:8 - 00:11:01:1
Unknown
several ways to do that. But you have to start out with an assessment because every place is different. and then you go from there to try to eliminate your particular, workplace stressors, that you can do something with for the people that want to do this kind of work in your organization. So I'm a leader and I'm open to this.

00:11:01:1 - 00:11:21:8
Unknown
I do want to do something to hang on to my not just to hang on to my employees, but to help them thrive, help them see that this is a place that they can really build their professional lives. Here. You mentioned coaching. So when you engage with an organization, no, Dan, I have to admit, it's football season. So I get to use the football analogy.

00:11:21:8 - 00:11:54:3
Unknown
And of course folks know that the camp center, while it works nationally and even internationally, is based in Colorado. And so our dear Denver Broncos, Dan Lee, hired a coach, we hired Sean Payton, and then Sean we trust because as a coach, he knows what we should do. And if he can just get that message through to the players and we've got the right players, we're going to win because the coach knows and he's going to tell us what to do.

00:11:54:4 - 00:12:18:4
Unknown
Is that how your coaching works? no. just maybe why you weren't hired to coach the Denver Broncos? I don't make them. I don't make the same amount of money that Sean does. I don't think I have to look at that, but I'm pretty sure I don't. but I think about this coaching can do. I really think this is what I want leaders to take away.

00:12:18:5 - 00:12:44:1
Unknown
you know, the individual worker, you have to do something. That's what the individual practices are so important. You have to do something or you're not going to survive this type of stressful job long term. But even if you're wonderful about that, even if your self care is just crazy good, you're still it still doesn't compensate for the impact of an unsupportive workplace.

00:12:44:2 - 00:13:09:6
Unknown
The kind of policies, practices, culture the way you do things, in the organization has everything to do with, making this a reasonable job, a reasonable place for people to want to work. I use the phrase workplace of choice, you know, with younger workers. Now it's real clear they're not staying in the in any industry, for 30 years anymore.

00:13:09:6 - 00:13:41:2
Unknown
They change jobs regularly. if their needs aren't getting met, then they're not going to stay there. And so especially in this job, when they're already getting stressors from the work itself to to be in an environment, a work environment that doesn't support them, they're they're going to be out the door. And we're seeing that, of course. So what's tricky about the coaching that we do the, you know, the the overarching goal of it is to create an environment or a workplace of choice, like I said.

00:13:41:3 - 00:14:01:9
Unknown
And that's and that's really a place where people who have the drive to do this kind of work also have a place that they can feel supports them. And if you don't, if you don't have that, they just can't stay in the job very long. And then this part of the work, this part of the intervention is all coaching because that because every situation is different.

00:14:02:0 - 00:14:23:0
Unknown
You know, if there was a common need, you could create some training perhaps, and just do this training for everybody. but when you have unique needs, every agency is different. they have their strengths, you have their weaknesses. You have to really, approach it from a coaching lens. That sounds a little bit like what social workers call meeting your client where they are.

00:14:23:0 - 00:14:50:7
Unknown
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That's the parallel. and and it's, you know, I know you've been around a long time. I've been around a long time and worked within a lot of different organizations in different capacities. you really in this intervention, we do coaching around both the ways that people do the work in the organization and then also what it feels like to work within the organization.

00:14:50:8 - 00:15:13:5
Unknown
And it's interesting. I've had this delightful I don't think my wife would call it delightful, really. I've had this delightful experience in the last year where my wife was working in a system large system as a manager and, in her organization, in the culture, in a nutshell, what the culture was you as you work, you do the work until the work is done.

00:15:13:6 - 00:15:40:4
Unknown
And no matter how long that takes and the result of that is, for example, my wife and everybody else and her type of role were working 70 or 80 hour weeks, and that was the expectation. And she's the most committed, the most loyal, the most hardworking person I, I know. And she did it for 25 years and she no longer could physically, emotionally do it anymore.

00:15:40:4 - 00:16:04:8
Unknown
She just said, this is not a way to live my life. And so she she changed jobs, and in her new organization, really large organization. But the culture is drastically different. It's it's just been enlightening just to kind of see the difference, in this new job, I won't name the place. But in this new job, you work hard in the role that she's in.

00:16:04:8 - 00:16:35:1
Unknown
But when the workday is over, you go home. They, you know, they they she has been told there's always going to be more to do. All right. And it's time to go home and we'll tackle what's left over tomorrow. So that's one solution to one particular challenge. Leaders were having. What else have you encountered? Because you have, done forms of this work around the country in various places with various organizations.

00:16:35:2 - 00:17:08:9
Unknown
What have you encountered? Well, it can work wherever land it is. I've really come to believe that culture is made up of lots of small things versus some big whatever. That that culture is the kind of conversations you have on a day to day basis. the ideas that that change a culture or create a culture that people want to work within, they don't have to be big, you know, there's there's a there's a suggestion I make to every organization I work with that is as tiny as you can be.

00:17:08:9 - 00:17:27:6
Unknown
So, you know this, you know, this type of, culture within an organization, any organization, we have meetings after meetings, after meetings. Yes, we do. And a lot of people go through that because we're going to be connected and aligned. Then yes, we are, and we're going to keep meeting until that happens. And we have to talk about things.

00:17:27:6 - 00:18:01:5
Unknown
And I get that. And what happens with that for a lot of people is, they're in back to back meetings throughout the day. Now, if you look at brain science, you know, you're at 2:00 after your fourth meeting. You are not showing up in and you're in the best way possible. Your brain's not up to it. And so what I make I make a suggestion for people and it's a it's a tiny little thing, but let's have 50 minute meetings, not more hour meetings.

00:18:01:6 - 00:18:21:5
Unknown
I mean, we don't think about we just say, yes, let's set up a meeting and it's it's for an hour, and then the next meeting starts right then. And the next meeting starts right then. 50 minute meetings give you a ten minute break for you to get up, move around, let your brain rest a little bit. use the use the bathroom.

00:18:21:6 - 00:18:42:4
Unknown
just that's what I'm talking about with it's little things like that. I mean, for you, Kendall, if you have an organization and all meetings were recommended to be 50 minutes long, that's how we do things here. We don't have hour long meetings. What's the message does that send to people that work there? What are the message it sends?

00:18:42:5 - 00:19:05:2
Unknown
It sends a message that you value not just my presence but my contributions. And you want me at my peak. Yeah. So that I can be productive, which is not only going to help me want to stick around because I'm going to have a feeling of satisfaction and achievement. It's going to help the organization succeed. If I'm showing up at my best.

00:19:05:4 - 00:19:23:8
Unknown
Exactly, exactly. Your ideas are going to be better. So that's I mean, that's those are the kind of small changes it can make that can make a huge difference within organizations. And I just like that example because it's so simple. but I just want to give a couple examples of some of the kind of discussions we've had in coaching.

00:19:23:9 - 00:19:48:5
Unknown
There's a large county that I worked with for a while, and what I noticed about that county was they had it. They had this beautiful weight loss preventing weight loss motivation program, beautiful thing. All the technology and stuff, but wonderful, wonderful rewards for losing weight. And, you know, the the, the basis of it is lose weight healthier people.

00:19:48:6 - 00:20:26:5
Unknown
Yeah with good I love that. And by the way save some money on health care cost I get that. And nothing wrong with it. And that county has probably the highest turnover in that state consistently. So again, a good coaching question. And that kind of scenario is so is that working? Is that helping? I'm not saying get a do away with it, but if that's your intervention or maybe it's not doing what you want it to do, it's sounds like your way of coaching is more about asking questions than delivering answers.

00:20:26:6 - 00:20:51:7
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Well, yes. And in a scenario like that, are you asking your employees what they would find supportive? Yeah. You know another county. Oh my God. This county has the most beautiful building I've ever seen. And as they were designing it, they designed it. The design is beautiful. There's a gym in this building that's to die for.

00:20:51:8 - 00:21:17:3
Unknown
They have quiet rooms on each floor that you know, employees coach. You can go in there and just take a little break. Beautiful beautiful ideas. and and they have the highest turnover in the state. And so again, it's are we doing the right thing or you know, where did those ideas come from? Is that is are we asking the staff what they would find most useful?

00:21:17:4 - 00:21:41:1
Unknown
that's the that's the point of coaching is are we really getting the information from the frontline people about what they would find supportive? Yep. So what are you focusing on then? So this coaching, I get the impression it's going to take the form that it needs to take for that organization. You don't have one size fits. All right.

00:21:41:1 - 00:22:08:6
Unknown
What are some of the areas then that you're focusing on. There's a lot there's a lot of them. I like this example. And people are always kind of quiet when I bring it up. You know, in child welfare, mistakes happen, bad mistakes happen, children die, for example, and you don't have a child death within any within an organization, a child welfare organization without lots and lots of meetings as a result of that, you know, what happened?

00:22:08:8 - 00:22:30:6
Unknown
How do we prevent this, all that and all that needs to happen, all that needs to happen. We have to learn from those kind of mistakes. Of course. And I like to ask the question is of organization. So what happens when there's a success? What happens when something really, really good happens here? Do you have a meeting about it and talk about it.

00:22:30:6 - 00:22:49:9
Unknown
Do you you know, do you learn from it? I, I mean I don't that that tends not to happen because we get good outcomes too. We do. You know there you know. And what I mean by the simple example by that is, you know, I have worked with this one organization. They had one team of large group. They lots of teams.

00:22:49:9 - 00:23:10:4
Unknown
They had one team who basically they never they placed almost no one in out of home care. And so let's meet with them to learn how they do that. What's their secret? Because their numbers were so much better than some of the other teams. Let's figure that out. Let's talk about that success and see if we can't spread it around.

00:23:10:4 - 00:23:34:2
Unknown
And so learning from success and not just from tragedy. Exactly, exactly. But again, I mean, if you if you ask me what the typical folk I that's the word I think, isn't it. We're I always wanted to say that word. Thank you. The, what they what it boils down to oftentimes is, helping people feel connected within the organization and how best to do that.

00:23:34:2 - 00:23:56:0
Unknown
so it's not just a place that people go to work and then they go home, but they feel connected there. They feel supported. And that can be take all kinds of, you know, different varieties depending on, again, depending on the organization. what the peer support looks like maybe, how connected are you across the agency, not just in your particular silo?

00:23:56:1 - 00:24:21:6
Unknown
all kinds of things to build connection. And then a big one is, is what I call work optimization. you know, how what the work floor looks like, what the schedule looks like, what the email burden looks like. I was told by somebody that they don't take vacations because of how bad it is, but to come back and have to answer 1300 emails?

00:24:21:6 - 00:24:48:7
Unknown
Yep. They literally avoid taking vacations because they don't want to face that. That's that's a problem that that can be addressed. I think. and then, you know, you have to look at policies and systems and, be willing to the organizations you need to be willing to to analyze the status quo and see what could you know, what changes could be made to benefit, you know, the resilience of the or, you know, the people that work there.

00:24:48:8 - 00:25:14:4
Unknown
There's a county that I worked with for a while, and they were, really struggling with workload and things like that. And just the the whole work life balance kind of thing. And they didn't go to their employees and say, you know, there's a lot of late nights here. And, you know, a lot of, you know, all those kind of things going on and we can't do away with that.

00:25:14:4 - 00:25:37:8
Unknown
We when we need to see kids, we have to see kids. What can we do? And they just all talked about it. And there was enough of that, enough people in that organization where they came up with, they made it, CPS investigators working shifts. So they had two shifts that people volunteered for. And one was that, you know, 8 to 5 shift that everybody thinks about, I guess.

00:25:37:9 - 00:25:58:2
Unknown
And then other people said, you know, the way my life is and way my life in my family is, it would be I would prefer not to come in in the morning and I'd be glad to work till 8:00 at night. So what about 12 to 8? Boom. Meeting people and that shift would be more family friendly to for some people.

00:25:58:2 - 00:26:25:6
Unknown
Right. Exactly. And so again, it's we get stuck in the status quo that this is when we work, for example, and or and certainly this is how we work. so it's, it's ideas like that. Sometimes it's coaching around changing mindsets within the organization. I'm working with a county right now who, people has to hesitate to take time off for lots of reasons.

00:26:25:7 - 00:26:52:1
Unknown
and it's not really supporting people. You know, sometimes you need some time away from this job. and it's just the supervisors don't take time off. So the caseworkers don't feel like they can take time off. It's how we work here. And so that's a mindset thing. and you have to regular you really have to just like, any time you have an intervention, you have to regularly assess what's working, what's not working.

00:26:52:1 - 00:27:23:3
Unknown
And as far as what we're trying to do here, so that's the kind of coaching that happens. and it's really making sure that we're measuring for me, it's important to measure what it is we want to see. Are we measuring the right things? and and not just, well, for example, there's a county now that has incorporated that caseworkers must have a self care plan because they know that self care is important.

00:27:23:3 - 00:27:46:5
Unknown
So they're saying let's have a self care plan, kind of co-develop it with the caseworker. And that's what they look they that's part of their annual review is how are we doing. How are you doing on your your self care. Wow. Yeah. Well yeah. Which imagine a supervisor at your annual review checking in to see if you taking your vacation this year.

00:27:46:7 - 00:28:13:6
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And even and, and honestly, I think a supervisor better be checking in on how their self care is going more than once a year or else. Yeah, but how cool. Yeah. We back up now. first off, can we give folks that contact information one more time? The website is kempecenter.org and that's kempecenter org.

00:28:13:6 - 00:28:48:2
Unknown
And you can click on this program the be well do well stay a while program and learn more information there. And again what is that funky email address. If you were stand oh Daniel and don't call me that but Daniel that that comercio. Oh Mark and see you on WhatsApp edu q AMC htc.edu. And so we've got three drivers we've addressed here just to back up and look at it.

00:28:48:4 - 00:29:14:6
Unknown
Big picture. Let me hear it from you Dan. What is this intervention going to do for organizations. And what is it going to address. So you're going to want to give some strategies, some some individual practices that caseworkers anybody in this case work has been anybody in the organization can practice to add to their toolbox. But these are recommendations that they would do.

00:29:14:8 - 00:29:42:7
Unknown
You have to have individuals behavior, individual behavior matters. You can't just sit there and expect your self care to be good and your resilience to be good. And then the culture has everything to do with how people feel supported. You know, it's how think culture again, how things are done and how it feels to work here and again that that driver, I think is mostly driven by the supervisor level.

00:29:42:8 - 00:30:01:4
Unknown
And then you have to have leadership being on board. they have to send a message that they really want that this to be part of how they work and how they want people to do, and they need to, send that message and then walk the talk. They need to be.

00:30:01:5 - 00:30:29:9
Unknown
A balance somehow. So all those kind of thing. So all those three set, all those three drivers are necessary. The individual, the culture and the leadership are cool. And folks, Dan is there to work with you and as you can tell, has worked in a lot of different situations and help those organizations come up with unique solutions that address their challenges, not somebody else's.

00:30:29:9 - 00:30:52:1
Unknown
Their challenges. Meeting folks where they are and getting them to where they want to go. Dan, thank you for this. Thank you for being well. Do well. Stay a while, folks. reach out to Dan. He'd be happy to help you and Dan Comer. Thanks for helping each of us look at these challenges in a new way. Thank you.

00:30:52:2 - 00:31:17:5
Unknown
Thank you. Kendall. Glad to be here. And to our listeners, this has been a four part series. You can back up and listen to all four if you'd like. That is available as well on the website and stick with us throughout the year and again in 2025 as Radio Kempe explores new areas and hears new voices.

00:31:17:6 - 00:31:37:8
Unknown
And perhaps we'd like to hear from you, reach out. We'd love to talk with you to everyone. Thank you for being a part of this. Thank you. Dan Comer. Once again, let's build that resiliency in our workforce. It can be done. And this has been Radio Kempe.

00:31:37:8 - 00:31:54:4
Unknown
Thank you for listening to Radio Kempe. Stay connected by visiting our website at kempecenter.org and follow us on social media.