21st Century Child Abuse: A conversation with Daniel Kardefelt-Winther, who leads research on children and digital technology at UNICEF’s global research arm in Italy

Dr. Daniel Kardefelt-Winther leads the Digital Engagement & Protection Team at UNICEF’s Global Office of Research and Foresight in Florence, Italy. He is one of the world’s foremost researchers on the harm to children in the digital world.  

In the Radio Kempe Podcast, Daniel discusses his pioneering Disrupting Harms research and how extensive the risks are to children online today.  He also addresses the adequacy of response of public and private agencies to these exploding problems and explores his exciting work in assessing the real effects on survivors of online child sexual abuse and exploitation. Finally, he explores the broader impacts of digital technology on children and society.  

Join Radio Kempe for an interview with world-leading researcher, Dr. Daniel Kardefelt-Winther of UNICEF, as we address the new risks and harms to children in this digital age, and work toward real practical solutions.  

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:21:14
Unknown
You're listening to Radio Kempe. We value the sense of community that connects people and helps them find ways to move forward. Join us on our journey to prevent child abuse and neglect.

00:00:21:15 - 00:00:56:10
Unknown
Welcome to Radio Kempe. Today is the latest podcast in the series 21st Century Child Abuse. I'm Ernie Allen and I will be your host today. I've spent many years in the fight to keep children safe. I'm an advisor to government, law enforcement, technology companies, and others, including the camp center. Today our guest is Doctor Daniel Kardefelt-Winther, who leads the digital Engagement and Protection team at UNICEF's global office of Research and Foresight in Florence, Italy.

00:00:56:11 - 00:01:24:15
Unknown
Daniel is a world leading researcher on the challenges facing children in the digital world. To date, he has conducted trailblazing research in more than 40 countries and heads the Global Kids Online Project. Daniel received his PhD from the London School of Economics, and then conducted research at the world renowned Karolinska Institute in Sweden. Daniel, thank you for being with us.

00:01:25:01 - 00:01:52:12
Unknown
Your pioneering disrupting harms research looked at the true digital risks and harms to children. Tell us about that. What did you conclude and how extensive are those risks? Thank you so much already to you, to the cancer Center for having me here today. Indeed, for the past decade or so, I've been doing large scale, multi-country research on children's experiences in the digital environment with a focus on online risks and harms.

00:01:52:13 - 00:02:14:10
Unknown
But most of this research has been in low and middle income countries, which is where Unicef does a lot of its work. And when we started this research back in 2015 and the purpose was to build up and to level evidence based around online opportunities and risks for children, because the internet has no borders, yet has the ability, in theory, to reach every child everywhere.

00:02:14:11 - 00:02:46:10
Unknown
We wanted to know what children in different countries were experienced online, to make sure that they could all benefit from technology, while staying safe. And so the Disrupting Harm Project, which of course, you've been a strong supporter of since its inception, there is an ongoing research partnership between Unicef, Expert International and Interpol, where we try to determine the extent to which children experience different forms of online sexual abuse, as well as the capacities and gaps in the national child protection system.

00:02:46:11 - 00:03:16:06
Unknown
So in terms of what highlights from our research on online risks and harms, I would mention three things. The first is that a significant proportion of children in almost every country where I work have been exposed to some form of risky or harmful experience online. Even children living in low connectivity settings experience online risks and harm to a significant degree, meaning that this is not only an issue for well connected countries or communities.

00:03:16:08 - 00:03:43:03
Unknown
However, we do see but once approximately half of the population of a country is connected, there is an exponential increase in children's exposure to these issues. And this means that the least connected countries of today have an opportunity, but also a need to put in place strong policies, laws and prevention strategies to prepare for a future increase in online harms affecting children.

00:03:43:04 - 00:04:09:03
Unknown
At the same time, countries with a high level of connectivity right now, we're currently in the midst of this wave. I can't tell you exactly how extensive the problem is, because the truth is we don't really know. It is very much a hidden issue still. And although we're doing our very best to talk to children about it, it's such a multifaceted problem and such a sensitive problem, but it's difficult to talk about exact problems.

00:04:09:04 - 00:04:37:15
Unknown
What is clear is that it's far too common. Secondly, I want to talk about online sexual abuse of children, which in my mind is one of the most serious harm that children face in the digital world. And this particular form of online harm, it seems to affect between 5% to up to 20% of teenage children every year, which is a frightening statistic in our research in Africa and Asia.

00:04:38:01 - 00:05:13:02
Unknown
We see very clearly that most children are sexually abused online via social media. and this finding has been replicated in other countries around the world as well. What I think is surprising to us was that online child sexual abuse was most often perpetrated by people already close to the time. And while I think that this has been known for some time through research on other forms of child abuse and violence against children, I think they would have expected that perpetration by random online strangers would have been more common.

00:05:13:03 - 00:05:36:12
Unknown
very likely if the parental forms of online abuse were measured. and we're doing more extensive analysis on that right now. because understanding perpetrator dynamics is really important for awareness raising and prevention. I just finally, I'll say that in our research with children around the world, we find that boys and girls experience online risks and harms in fairly equal proportions.

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:57:11
Unknown
I think there is sometimes a notion that girls are more at risk online, and both, but we don't see indications of that in general in our data so far. what we do see is that girls are more exposed to certain online harm than boys, and vice versa. and this matters if we want to target our interventions and prevention work more accurately.

00:05:57:11 - 00:06:25:09
Unknown
But of course, having said that, when we design prevention, set up support services, in the end we really need to be able to provide services that work for all children. Well, I mean, I think those are astounding data. And I congratulate you on the importance and the timeliness of the research. you're right, this remains largely a problem that is hidden, to to the population, to policymakers.

00:06:25:11 - 00:06:53:03
Unknown
you mentioned in your research you interviewed children around the world, but you also looked at public and private agencies working to address this problem. What did you conclude and how effective are those agencies? So this is a key aspect of our work on the Disrupting Harm Project. we believe the work of the public sector and civil society is incredibly important to build effective protection systems that work for children.

00:06:53:04 - 00:07:18:09
Unknown
However, I think public agencies working on this topic, they're struggling right now in many countries around the world. And it's not going to be easier as online crimes keep evolving and are enabled by new, powerful technologies like generative AI. So we will need increased and sustainable investment in child protection systems and law enforcement capacity to be able to give children the support they need.

00:07:18:10 - 00:07:42:06
Unknown
And the parts of the world where I've done most research, and that's mostly middle income countries in Africa and Asia. I would say that the effectiveness of these agencies are quite mixed, depending on the country, but they are improving. So over the past 4 to 5 years, there's been a positive shift in terms of the willingness to recognize the problem of online sexual abuse.

00:07:42:07 - 00:08:09:10
Unknown
And governments are increasingly prioritizing work on this issue. And I think the the work you've been involved in and the work on that we protect Global Alliance has been instrumental in this effort. But even so, child protection systems in many countries are chronically underfunded, which makes it really difficult to strengthen capacities around online issues or to financially sustain promising initiatives.

00:08:09:11 - 00:08:37:00
Unknown
So friendly practices and behaviors are not as mainstreamed as we would like them to be. And in some countries, the workforce simply is not sufficiently up to date on online crimes affecting children, which makes it very difficult for them to meet children where they are. It makes it difficult to understand children's needs or know how to support them, either emotionally, practically or legally.

00:08:37:02 - 00:09:03:05
Unknown
Well, but I think the the progress you've shown light on that need on that problem and hopefully we're gaining ground on the policy front. I'm particularly intrigued by one of the byproducts of your interviews with children about their online experience, and that is, as you've done that, you've identified victims and survivors of online child sexual abuse and exploitation.

00:09:03:06 - 00:09:33:12
Unknown
You've been a global pioneer in, survivor research. What have you learned and what are the implications for future research? So in my mind, early understanding the lived experiences of survivors is absolutely necessary to build effective solutions. And in my team, indeed, we've been doing two kinds of survivor research under the Disrupting Home Project. The first is survey research with children.

00:09:33:12 - 00:09:57:00
Unknown
That includes those who have experienced online sexual abuse, which we've been doing for a number of years now. And also for the past two years, we've been working on a, for us, a new method to engage children and young people in a kind of trauma informed, in-depth interview conducted by a clinical researcher who mostly support the participant to share their story.

00:09:57:01 - 00:10:21:07
Unknown
And the goal really is to enable the child to map out their life journey and describe their experience of online sexual abuse within that in a way that works for them. And this kind of open ended way of engaging with survivors. It was piloted by our partners in Expert International back in 2019. and with special mention to my fantastic colleague, doctor Mark Kavanagh, who led that work.

00:10:21:08 - 00:11:00:15
Unknown
And we found it to work well, and we have since strived to improve on that method for our continued survivor research. And there are two things that have struck me, especially in doing this work, that I would like to share. The first is that it is entirely possible to do survivor centered research with children. And I say that because sometimes I have people come up and ask me, you know, is it really possible to do this kind of research with children, thinking legitimately that it is perhaps too sensitive or potentially traumatizing for a child to talk about these things?

00:11:01:01 - 00:11:36:05
Unknown
And it definitely can be, but it is possible to do so. It just takes a significant amount of work to properly think through your ethical responsibilities to develop robust safeguarding protocols that actually work in the country, where you implement. We've had to develop some technical solutions and particular interviewing techniques to ensure privacy and confidentiality, and we train and work with highly qualified interviewers and have a range of support options available in case it's needed.

00:11:36:07 - 00:12:02:09
Unknown
So it matters a lot how you set this process up. it takes a lot of care to do it properly. And this is why it's been such a privilege to work on the Disrupting Harm project, where we have had the time and resourcing to do this right. And I really want to give a shout out to our fantastic donor at the Safe Online initiative, who really understands what quality research on this topic requires.

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:34:03
Unknown
So in the current process, which is ongoing right now, by the way, we've interviewed around 25 survivors over the past two months. And we have at least as many interviews yet to come. Now, the second thing I'd like to share, based on these interviews that we have ongoing, is that children really respond quite differently to our interviews. Some find it very difficult and traumatizing to talk about their experience of online sexual abuse.

00:12:34:05 - 00:13:04:04
Unknown
It's a difficult interview for them, but others, they find it very empowering. We heard from one child that we spoke to that this was really the first time ever that an adult had shown any kind of interest in talking about their abuse experience, and that it felt really good for them sharing it with someone. Others have shared stories showing incredible strength and resilience as they overcome periods of extensive abuse.

00:13:04:06 - 00:13:43:05
Unknown
Sometimes even confronting the abuser and working to have them prosecuted, which is a really tough process to go through. But we've also had cases where interviews had to be stopped because the memories of the abuse, they were just overwhelming. So what I find so special about survivor research is when we hear from some children that it really helped them to talk this through with someone, or when they tell us that they never realized how them sharing their experience can actually help other children down the line, for example by improving services or laws indirectly through our work.

00:13:43:06 - 00:14:20:12
Unknown
And in some countries, our survival research has already been picked up by national radio and national newspapers, which have given our research teams on the ground, many of whom are professional frontline service providers, the opportunity to appear on national radio and raise awareness about the issue. So even before producing any research results in a few countries, we've already started a national conversation about the issue, which is really valuable, especially in countries where there's just a huge culture of silence around sexual abuse, which unfortunately is quite common.

00:14:20:13 - 00:14:44:07
Unknown
But quick follow up on that. And in with younger children, are you interviewing them with a parent present? and how do you do it? Will the child tell what happened to them with a parent present? So I should I should specify that we don't interview children younger than the age of 16. I see them for a range of reasons.

00:14:44:08 - 00:15:07:09
Unknown
but. But to answer your question, no, we prefer to not have the child or the parent present in the interview. because they could call them complications and they might not be as open, and they may not want to share the full extent of their experience necessarily with the parent. We do give them, the choice. So it's it's possible to do it that way.

00:15:07:10 - 00:15:33:12
Unknown
but we try to avoid it. Okay. Well, yeah, I just I wanted to clarify that for our audience. We have an audience of of physicians. So social workers of, child welfare workers of academics and other researchers. And one of the challenges that we're talking about is how difficult it is, to do this research. And your work is basically establishing how to do this for researchers worldwide.

00:15:33:13 - 00:15:59:15
Unknown
And so I also want to go back to a point you made earlier about the fact that this problem is clearly underreported, underappreciated. So as we as we deal with policymakers, how do we convey that the problem is as serious and extensive as it is? And how do we change, the reality that the problem is underappreciated and under-recognized?

00:16:00:00 - 00:16:21:10
Unknown
So it is definitely an underreported issue. As with other forms of child abuse and violence against children, as I know you're very much aware of from all your important work in this space. I think this type of research we've been talking about is, really important lever that we can use with policymakers and others to convey the extent of this problem.

00:16:21:11 - 00:17:01:08
Unknown
And again, going back to the survivor research, I think one thing that I find particularly useful about this is that you can really demonstrate in quite some detail, tell really powerful stories, that makes it more real, more tangible, what these children are experiencing. And I'm hoping, that this will make policymakers, but also others. since the urgency of actually addressing this issue now in terms of how we change underreporting, I think it's difficult to do.

00:17:01:09 - 00:17:23:10
Unknown
despite our best efforts to estimate how many children are experiencing different forms of online sexual abuse. We do recognize that when we talk about representative service, for example, which is one thing that my team specializes in, even the best of efforts will fall short to an extent, because many children just do not want to share these experiences.

00:17:23:12 - 00:17:51:01
Unknown
Yeah. And I think we all understand that. So in our service, even among those who do share actually that they have experienced or known sexual abuse, almost a third tell us that they've never reported or disclose this to anyone else. And very often that is because they're embarrassed. They don't think that others would believe them if they tell them, you know, or they just find it too difficult to talk about.

00:17:51:03 - 00:18:29:12
Unknown
And the very sad consequence of that is that these children don't get the help and support they need. Now, I think there are two ways to try to change that. The first is not new. It's not related to online abuse per se. It's about social norms. So to change how we as a society or our societies recognize, respond to and talk about sexual abuse online as well as in person, and especially I think we need to find ways to talk about it with children, which can be a very difficult conversation to have.

00:18:29:13 - 00:19:04:11
Unknown
And it might feel wrong even to do so as well. If they're very young. But if children don't know what sexual abuse is or what constitutes appropriate or inappropriate behavior online or in person, then perpetrator will be able to take advantage of that. So we need a way to help children understand what constitutes abusive or inappropriate behavior, or different ways you can talk about it, different things you can call it, including in an online environment, because otherwise they're less likely to recognize it.

00:19:04:12 - 00:19:29:04
Unknown
They're less likely to talk to adults if it's happening to them. And then the problem will remain underreport it and children will not get help. On the flip side of that, as adult, I think we have to be much better at listening to children when they talk to us about these things, when they actually open up. And we have to take them very seriously when they do so.

00:19:29:05 - 00:19:50:10
Unknown
And we have to come up with realistic solutions that work for them. So we've heard time and again in our research from children that their parents, they get angry with them when they disclose abuse. They blame them for letting it happen. We've heard of parents who don't want to go to the police and report the abuse, because it would be embarrassing to the family.

00:19:50:11 - 00:20:19:12
Unknown
These kinds of responses that diminish children's experiences or that don't provide good solutions, or any solutions they need to change to make it viable for children to come forward to disclose abuse and report perpetrators and that requires a normative shift. And without that happening, I fear that this issue will remain underreported. But there are some specific challenges here related to the technology as well.

00:20:19:13 - 00:20:45:00
Unknown
So we've heard of parents threatening to take jail and forms away as punishment for being abused online, which has led to several children that we spoke to to not disclose their experiences because their phones are so important for their social life. And we've learned how police sometimes did not take online sexual abuse seriously because the children were not physically harmed, so they didn't think it was very serious.

00:20:45:02 - 00:21:13:07
Unknown
And we've learned of cases where the court didn't sufficiently understand how digital technologies and social media even worked. And so they weren't able to properly hear cases. So in addition to the normative shift, I think in some countries we also need a broader digital upskilling of parents, social service workforce, the justice sector or law enforcement to help them understand online crimes against children.

00:21:13:08 - 00:21:37:00
Unknown
And this is exactly what the Disrupting Harm Project tries to do. And it's part and parcel of UNICEF's work on online protection of well, I just want to echo that you are changing that perception. I've had public, officials say to me, policymakers say to me, if this is such a serious problem, prove it. and that's what you're doing.

00:21:37:00 - 00:22:08:14
Unknown
When they ask, why should we address this? instead of all the other serious issues that that we're confronting. So research is the answer. And disrupting harms is filling a lot of the gaps out there. but your research work goes far beyond online child abuse. you're also a global expert on children's rights, gaming, behavioral addiction, the broader impacts of digital technology on children in society.

00:22:09:00 - 00:22:39:09
Unknown
From the work you've done, what are the most troubling and emerging challenges you see and what more needs to be done? indeed. I started my, career actually, by studying addiction to technology and the impact of screen time on children. for my age, which is a very topical conversation right now before moving towards, research on all known risks and harms and then eventually ending up with a strong focus on online sexual abuse.

00:22:39:10 - 00:23:25:06
Unknown
so I have quite a broad outlook on the different issues affecting children. in the online space. So having this broad outlook and having worked across a number of online protection issues over the years, to me, the most troubling challenge. I'm not going to take an online risk or harm. Actually, I'm going to say that the most troubling challenge really is what we, as in the global community, still don't have a good enough grasp of what kinds of online experiences and what kinds of online content is truly harmful to children, but still quite common that we assume, rather than assess whether harm has actually occurred in different situations.

00:23:25:07 - 00:23:55:11
Unknown
Taking into account the children react differently to different experiences, and they have different support structures around them to help buffer against harm. So the question of what is actually truly harmful to children online is really critical. When we think about legislation, prevention, support and also parenting. But exactly also what you just mentioned, when we advocate for where to invest our attention and resources.

00:23:55:13 - 00:24:19:06
Unknown
And so I'll give you an example. There's a lot of talk right now about how spending too much time on social media is harmful for children's mental health. The US surgeon general recently issued a warning about this. There are some governments, some states are banning social media for younger children. and parents are concerned about their children being addicted to social media.

00:24:19:08 - 00:24:41:11
Unknown
and there's a real sense that we need to do something about this. But what worries me in all of this is that there's a lack of a deeper analysis of when and why social media use or internet use is actually harmful. And the problem, I think, is that we still treat social media use or screen time as a monolith.

00:24:41:14 - 00:25:11:15
Unknown
If you will, as if it was an experience that is always the same or easier to define, but it really isn't. A child can have a thousand different experiences on social media. And we need to be much more nuanced in understanding what kinds of experiences are harmful. So in our most recent research, we find that what really matters for children's mental health is not so much the time they spend online, but the kinds of experience that they have when doing so.

00:25:12:01 - 00:25:46:05
Unknown
And when we compare the impact of different, potentially harmful online experiences, it is online bullying and online sexual abuse that are by far the most harmful for children's mental health. Online sexual abuse has the largest negative impact by a considerable margin. So children who experience any form of online sexual abuse, they are 3 to 4 times more likely to say that they've had thoughts of suicide or self-harm in the past year.

00:25:46:06 - 00:26:11:12
Unknown
And they have much higher rates of anxiety. So while spending too much time on anything is never going to be great for you. Even at very high levels of general internet use or general social media use, the mental health both pale in comparison to what happens if a child experiences online bullying or online sexual abuse. This is what we need to watch out for.

00:26:11:13 - 00:26:35:14
Unknown
And these are the issues that we should focus on preventing. And it will only become more important as connectivity increases across the globe. And we need a lot more research into how concrete experiences or content for that matter, influence children's mental health. and we need to stop worrying so much about screen time itself, as if this was somehow a meaningful concept on its own.

00:26:35:15 - 00:27:10:14
Unknown
I don't think it is. And I believe last week there was a new report from a US government inter-agency task force that supports this notion and recommended that we move beyond screen time when analyzing negative impacts on on young people. And the good thing is that this perspective actually makes it easier, in a way, for us to call for solutions, because technology companies, they often say that there's very little that they can do to stop children from spending a lot of time, time on their platform, but they say they're just providing a good product.

00:27:10:15 - 00:27:38:09
Unknown
And it's really not up to them to say how much each child should spend on on the platform. That's the parent's job. And in a way, they're kind of right about that. We can't ask companies to decide those things for families, so nothing ever changes. But what we can ask companies to do is to make sure that their platforms are free from harmful content, and that children who use them are protected from harmful experiences.

00:27:38:10 - 00:28:03:00
Unknown
And we demand this from most other places where children spend time. And there's no reason. But I see for why we should not demand this from technology companies as well. And based on our evidence, minimizing harmful online experiences like online sexual abuse will be one of the most effective ways to protect children's mental health in a digital world.

00:28:03:02 - 00:28:35:03
Unknown
And that is where we should focus our efforts. Daniel, that's extraordinary and incredible advice. And Unicef is leading the world in filling that void. So thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for the remarkable work you've done and continue to do. and we are so grateful for disrupting harm and for the the other initiatives you've undertaken that are enabling progress in the fight against 21st century child abuse.

00:28:35:04 - 00:28:51:00
Unknown
And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. We hope you will tune in again to Radio Kempe as we continue this podcast series on 21st century child abuse.

00:28:51:01 - 00:29:04:12
Unknown
Thank you for listening to Radio Kempe. Stay connected by visiting our website at kempecenter.org and follow us on social media.